Paladin D Posted October 15, 2004 Posted October 15, 2004 [quote name='superman2000' date='Oct 15 2004, 02:48 PM'] When we look in the Bible we find that prayer is directed to God alone. Asking a saint to help and guide or protect is something only God can do. As someone once put it, why go to the branch office when you can go to the president. There is not one example of a Christian addressing prayers to Mary or saints. Mary ROCKS, However, she is not the key. Jesus is the key, knock and it shall be opened unto you [/quote] Praying to a Saint is asking for intercessory. Not only do we ask for others [b]to pray for us[/b], we ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us. By your own argument, there is no real point then in asking others to pray for us. By the way, welcome to the board! Enjoy your stay.
CatholicforChrist Posted October 15, 2004 Posted October 15, 2004 Not only do we ask the Saints to intercede to God for us, we also ask them to grant us things by their own power and authority. This is something that is often neglected when discussing with protestants as a means of making the doctrine of the Communion of Saints more appealing to their erroneous doctrines, but it has been practiced consistently in the Church possibly even more strongly than simply asking for intercession.
Guest Aluigi Posted October 15, 2004 Posted October 15, 2004 the power of the saints is soley from God. it is not of their own power.
ICTHUS Posted October 15, 2004 Posted October 15, 2004 I put D. Were the Pope, and the Church of Rome, not espousing such damnable heresy, I would be happy to permit the Pope primacy among all the bishops of holy Mother Kirk. However, the Council of Trent declared the Romish heresies irreformable, so that will never happen.
Brother Adam Posted October 16, 2004 Posted October 16, 2004 Still "trolling" ICTHUS? Why you haven't been banned yet is beyond me. Don't forget though, you could not accept the Pope. Ever. Your heresy doesn't allow for it. You are your own supreme authority on the faith in the world.
Apotheoun Posted October 16, 2004 Posted October 16, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Oct 15 2004, 02:33 PM'] the power of the saints is soley from God. it is not of their own power. [/quote] The power of the saints is God's power, but it is also their own. It can best be termed dyoenergetic, because it is God's power (energy) that perfects and elevates the power (energy) of the saints as He works, [i]in[/i], [i]with[/i], and [i]through[/i] them. It is a true synergy between God and the saints, always dependent upon God, but the saints are truly active, and so they are not merely passive instruments of the divine energy.
Socrates Posted October 16, 2004 Author Posted October 16, 2004 [quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Oct 15 2004, 02:10 PM'] I answered A, but choice B is a bit misleading. As Catholics we most certainly should follow our own consciences, that is a well informed conscience not influenced by thoughts or motives contrary to Catholic morality and faith. Also, the pope is not infallible on everything - he goes to confession every week - but is infallible on ex cathedra teachings. You can disagree with the pope when he states something like we should cooperate with the UN or that a certain war is unjust. There are times when he is absolutely correct and those times you have to follow him, but for the most part those times are few and far between. [/quote] I agree with your postion. Choice "B" was intended to represent the liberal "cafeteria Catholic" position.
ICTHUS Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 Yeah, I figured that I post so little here that I might as well be gone. [QUOTE]Why you haven't been banned yet is beyond me.[/QUOTE] If I were banned, I would just chalk it up to being persecuted for the Gospel. When I believe something is damnable, I call a spade a spade. Roman Catholics are permitted to do that here according to your beliefs, why may not I do so? [QUOTE]Don't forget though, you could not accept the Pope. Ever. Your heresy doesn't allow for it. You are your own supreme authority on the faith in the world.[/QUOTE] I do not think you fully understand the Reformed doctrine of the teaching authority of the Church. We believe that the Church has authority to teach the People of God, but we see no need for that authority to be infallible - indeed, we consider it dangerous to do so, lest falsehood be considered the Truth of God. Indeed I would permit the Pope to have primacy over the Church - primacy, but [b]not infallibility[/quote]. The Pope's declarations would need to be subordinate to Scripture.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 The office of the Pope preceeds scripture.
XIX Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 Matthew 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and [b]the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [/b] Anything other than Choice A would be a flat out contradiction of the Bible. And just to clarify, the infallible authority of the Chuch only extends as far as faith and morals. Such things as receiving communion in the hand or tongue, those are disciplines, which are very different. Same can be said about mass in general; we didn't have vernacular masses back in the day.
ICTHUS Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 16 2004, 07:43 PM'] The office of the Pope preceeds scripture. [/quote] True. I fail to see the relevance of this to the above argument, however.
ICTHUS Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 [quote name='XIX' date='Oct 16 2004, 09:02 PM'] Matthew 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and [b]the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [/b] Anything other than Choice A would be a flat out contradiction of the Bible. And just to clarify, the infallible authority of the Chuch only extends as far as faith and morals. [/quote] The infallible authority of the Church extends only as far as faith and morals? But ask yourself this question: where does Jesus limit Peter's authority to the narrowly defined requirements for Ex Cathedra statements? It seems that the Roman Catholic exegesis proves too much!
cmotherofpirl Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 I was responding to this: "The Pope's declarations would need to be subordinate to Scripture. " The office of the Pope preceeds scripture. Scripture comes from the Church and is a part of the Church, but does not judge the Church. It is not ABOVE the Church, and never claims to be.
Justified Saint Posted October 17, 2004 Posted October 17, 2004 cmotherofpirl, I can understand and appreciate your point, but I think the way you phrase it is in danger of being a little misrepresentative of the Catholic understanding of the authority of Church and Bible. It seems very awkward making distinctions between the authority of the Church and the Scriptures as if they were somehow different and one was more important or took "precedence" over the other. Certainly we are all (both Catholic and Protestant) often guilty of making this rather natural distinction when classifying each others position. Yet, when we talk about the authority of the Scriptures and the Church we are essentianlly talking about the same thing. The Scriptures have no authority outside the Church and likewise the Church has no authority outside the Scriptures - the source of their authority is the same thing, the Word of God. The Word of God supplies for both the written word and the living word (or the Church). The Church should always be seen as the servant and guardian of the Scriptures, protecting it from error and corruption. For the written word can best be seen as the substance of revelation and the living word as the divine interpreter and communicater of Truth. The Word of God can't possibly exist without the two different expressions. Far from upholding the authority of Scripture then, the result of the Reformation was just the opposite - the authority of Scripture was undermined. The Reformers in many ways divorced the Scriptures from the Church by unkowningly establishing a rather false dichotomy of Church authority and Scriputral authority.
jmjtina Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 [quote]Yet, when we talk about the authority of the Scriptures and the Church we are essentianlly talking about the same thing. The Scriptures have no authority outside the Church and likewise the Church has no authority outside the Scriptures - the source of their authority is the same thing, the Word of God. [/quote] I'm not understanding you. Correct me if I"m wrong, Are you saying scripture has the sole authority therefore if the Church upholds these purely, then it has authority? Scripture is not the sole rule of authority. Who picked the scripture in the first place? Was there some divine "Table of Contents"? There is a difference of seven books that our separated brothers and sisters do not have. What you will find missing is Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, (including the Letter of Jeremiah), I and II Maccabees and parts of Esther and Daniel. However, you will find that the New Testament canon of the Catholic Church, the twenty-seven books we share with our separated friends, exist because the authority of the Catholic Church made the selection. It was the Catholic Church who made the selection of what books did or did not belong; therefore all who have the New Testament are adhering to the authority of the Catholic Church. For those who doubt that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has any authority must logically doubt the choice of the books inspired by God. God Bless. yeah, I picked A Greg.
flip Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 by this poll, it makes me realize that there are very few non-catholics here. which makes me sad
dUSt Posted October 18, 2004 Posted October 18, 2004 [quote name='flip' date='Oct 18 2004, 02:40 PM'] by this poll, it makes me realize that there are very few non-catholics here. which makes me sad [/quote] Go get some.
Paladin D Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 [quote name='flip' date='Oct 18 2004, 03:40 PM'] by this poll, it makes me realize that there are very few non-catholics here. which makes me sad [/quote] Or they don't polls.
ICTHUS Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 17 2004, 12:54 PM']The office of the Pope preceeds scripture. Scripture comes from the Church and is a part of the Church, but does not judge the Church. It is not ABOVE the Church, and never claims to be.[/quote] Jesus seems to think that the Scripture is what we should judge our doctrines on. In Matt 22:29 Jesus says that the pharisees "are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." Hmm...?? Also, in Mark 7 he seems to think that the Scriptures are sufficent for judging our doctrines. [b]sola gratia ~ sola fide ~ sola scriptura ~ solus christus ~ soli deo gloria[/b]
Brother Adam Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Mark 7 says nothing about the supreme rule of scriptures. Nor does Matthew 22. You're using scripture to draw conclusions that just aren't there. The Bible never says "The canonized scriptures of the New Testament are sufficient for". The word "Sufficient" is never used for "scripture". So there is no "hmmm" about it. And just how much of the Old Testament do you know? I hardly ever had the Old Testament preached at my fundamental Church. These are scriptures Matthew refers to. The Gospels were not written today. If you cannot use the Bible in context, you bring Jesus' condemnation unto yourself in Matthew 22.
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