foundsheep Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 My Brother(pentacostal) and I (catholic) always have this discussion. He says it was really grape juice becuase jesus would not sin by sippin tha alcohol. I have always been taught and really believe "fermented" grapes contain alcohol. This is probably just an opinion question but I find it interesting.
Dave Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 If it's fermented, it contains alcohol. Ask him where it says in the Bible that drinking alcohol is in and of itself sinful.
[jas] Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 What difference does it make anyway? Isn't it all in what it represents? (speaking as someone who's had communion with mates with pizza shapes and coke cause that's all we had around)
foundsheep Posted October 2, 2003 Author Posted October 2, 2003 Im not downing anybody but some like to nit-pick
Dave Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 ,Oct 1 2003, 08:20 PM] What difference does it make anyway? Isn't it all in what it represents? (speaking as someone who's had communion with mates with pizza shapes and coke cause that's all we had around) Jesus celebrated the Last Supper with bread and wine. Once they're consecrated, they become the Body and Blood of Christ. There's no mere representation; it's truly the Lord's Body and Blood. So we must use worthy material. Common stuff like pizza won't suffice for that.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 Grapes start to ferment immediately if not before you squish them. THe bacteria is on the skin of the grape. I have drunk pigeons in my yard every September.
skuba steve Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 i think it was alcoholic.... Jesus celebrated the Last Supper with bread and wine. Once they're consecrated, they become the Body and Blood of Christ. There's no mere representation; it's truly the Lord's Body and Blood. So we must use worthy material. Common stuff like pizza won't suffice for that. that's ridiculous... do you have the exact same bread that Jesus ate???? do you have the exact same batch of wine/grape juice that Jesus drank???? you think by putting a piece of coagulated milk on the bread that it will make it less holy???? When you take communion do you do it in remembrance of Jesus or do you think about how much holier you are because you bread was baked with special flour???
Dave Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 that's ridiculous... do you have the exact same bread that Jesus ate???? do you have the exact same batch of wine/grape juice that Jesus drank???? you think by putting a piece of coagulated milk on the bread that it will make it less holy???? When you take communion do you do it in remembrance of Jesus or do you think about how much holier you are because you bread was baked with special flour??? Jesus used unleavened bread and grape wine. Therefore, we Catholics do the same. If Jesus didn't add things to what he used, then we're not to do so either. We don't treat Holy Communion as though it were a snack. It isn't! And the flour has nothing to do with it. If bread made from wheat and grape wine isn't used, no consecration happens. Communion isn't a symbol for us; it becomes Christ's true Body and Blood.
notbilln Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 Where exactly in the bible does it say that drinking wine is a sin? Is that why Jesus' first miricle was to turn water into .. wine?!? That right there sorta kills his argument.
skuba steve Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 Jesus used unleavened bread and grape wine. Therefore, we Catholics do the same. If Jesus didn't add things to what he used, then we're not to do so either. We don't treat Holy Communion as though it were a snack. It isn't! And the flour has nothing to do with it. If bread made from wheat and grape wine isn't used, no consecration happens. Communion isn't a symbol for us; it becomes Christ's true Body and Blood. It's still not exactly the same. That's like saying Jesus drove a Ford so we all have to drive either fords or chryslers but not chevys. They are man made limitations based on what some dude thought would have been nice. If Jesus didn't add things to what he used, then we're not to do so either. So your absolutely sure that your unlevened bread doesn't have one little ingredient (preservative, msg, anti-caking agent, hair) that wasn't in the bread Jesus ate?
cmotherofpirl Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 So your absolutely sure that your unlevened bread doesn't have one little ingredient (preservative, msg, anti-caking agent, hair) that wasn't in the bread Jesus ate? yep
Dave Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 It's still not exactly the same. That's like saying Jesus drove a Ford so we all have to drive either fords or chryslers but not chevys. They are man made limitations based on what some dude thought would have been nice. So your absolutely sure that your unlevened bread doesn't have one little ingredient (preservative, msg, anti-caking agent, hair) that wasn't in the bread Jesus ate? The Church has the authority given by God to decide what constitutes valid matter for Communion. God led the Church to determine what would be valid and what wouldn't be. It's not something men arbitrarily decided. And the bread for Communion is specially made with just flour and water -- nothing else. If a hair fell into the dough, however, it wouldn't be enough to invalidate the bread.
Cure of Ars Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 Does Grape Juice instead of wine make for an anemic Jesus during communion? :P
IXpenguin21 Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 on completion of the miracle on holy thursday at the last supper, Jesus said, "do this in memory of me" not "change this to liven things up when you get bored after vadican 1 leaves you really really bored with Mass in the 20th century." we take our scripture and our acounts of Christ quite literaly. the bible paralles itself for us using bread in our sacrifice. jesus says he is the bread of life moses recieves bread from heaven jesus says he is the bread of life that came down from heaven (combining the 2) we use wine, not grape juice. Jesus was jewish. to the jews, wine is very important to their sacrifice of passover, the same sacrifice jesus was celebrating at the last supper. the jews wine was part of their covinent with God, and jesus tells us that the wine, transformed into His blood, is the NEW covinent, not the new beverage.
Cure of Ars Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 (edited) jesus would not sin by sippin tha alcohol Ask you freind if sippin alcohol is sinful why does Paul say the following? Stop drinking only water, but have a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. (1 Tim 5:23) Edited October 2, 2003 by Cure of Ars
mulls Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 i could really care less whether if was alcoholic or not, but here's what i think anyway, considering the miracle of water into wine... if it's fermented, it's alcoholic. and the process of fermentation takes time. but Jesus transformed the water into wine instantly. so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the wine was non-alcoholic, or at least minimally alcoholic. either way, i don't think Jesus would create a drink that people would get very easily drunk off of. and either way, i still don't care. i hate arguing about this stuff.
ironmonk Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 Here's a little ditty for you all. Non-alcoholic juice did not exist until 1869 AD and was invented by Welch because of prohibition. Welch was the first to apply the pasteurization process to juice. Grapes start the fermentation process on the vine. Also, in Mark 2:22 we see that new wine, recently pressed and strongly fermenting, cannot be stored in secondhand wineskins because the strong yeast and microbial activity of an earlier quantity of new wine will have stretched and weakened the old leather. This does not happen with non-alchoholic grape juice. Application of the facts: Any church that preaches that drinking alcohol is a sin or that Jesus drank non-alcoholic grape juice instead of wine cannot be the holder of the full truth. jas, It makes a very big difference... if someone is so off about the little things (i.e. if it was wine or juice) how can they possibly know the big things (i.e. proper interpretation, etc). God Bless, ironmonk
Anna Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 (edited) Our Lord, Jesus Christ, definitely used wine, not juice. The reason: there was no refrigeration in those days. The crushed grapes began to ferment on day 1! When Jesus changed the water into wine, the head waiter remarked to the wedding's host, "Most people serve their best wine first, then after the guests have had a few (paraphrasing) they switch to a lesser (implying lower alcohol content) wine. You have saved the best wine till last." In other words, the water which Jesus turned into wine was a high-quality wine! Note the Bible does say wine, not juice. And note, as CMom said above that it is Jewish tradition to use wine at the celebration of the Pasch. Guess what? Jesus was Jewish. Someone is misinterpretting Holy Scripture to suit his own understanding when he claims that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, couldn't possibly have sipped wine, because that is a sin. Nonsense! And yes, Skuba Steve, the apostles used the same type of unleavened bread and fermented wine that Jesus had used. They passed this Sacred Tradition on to the next generation of priests, and so on down the centuries. Celebrating the Lord's Supper is done with great care and reverence in the Catholic Church, since Jesus Christ's Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Most Blessed Sacrament are the source, summit, and center of our spiritual life. You may not believe It yourself, but at least show a little respect for those of us who do. You have no ability whatsoever to confect pizza and coke into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, so your comparison is null. Only a duly ordained priest has the gift, by virtue of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, to call upon the Holy Spirit to transubstantiate ordinary unleavened bread and fermented grape wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus. If the proper form (prayers) or matter (bread and wine) are not used, the Sacrament is not valid. We do not get to "reinvent the wheel" or substitute something a little more pleasing to our palates. We are to imitate Christ's Last Supper. That is what we have done for over 2,000 years. It is, as I said before, a Sacred Tradition, and the summit of our Faith. Pax Christi. <>< Edited October 2, 2003 by Anna
[jas] Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 I still say, what difference does it make either way? Yes, it would have been wine that Jesus used. But are you saying that He's not powerful enough to change grape juice into His blood if He wants to (seeing as that's what He apparantly does for wine?) And with regard to my pizza shapes (for you non-australians, "pizza flavoured" biscuits) and coke, it was all in what it represented, that's what we had with us at the time and after me and some of my mates had just had an amesome prayer time, we decided to have communion. What you're saying is that it's not valid, even though we remembered Christ's sacrifice with that? Why not?
Anna Posted October 2, 2003 Posted October 2, 2003 Not only was it invalid, but if you understood the magnitude of the Last Supper and Christ's command to perpetuate the Sacrifice of His Body and Blood, you would understand that your little party was sacreligious. However, you were not culpable, as you didn't understand. So you are guilty of no sin. If you continue to do so with your friends, now that you've been told the diff, then you are truly and willfully committing an abomination. So, please, don't try to re-invent the Lord's Supper with whatever munchies you happen to have handy. Pax Christi. <><
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