Wine Or Grape Juice?

[[jas]]

you would understand that your little party was sacreligious.

sac·ri·le·gious (skr-ljs, -ljs)

adj.

1. Grossly irreverent toward what is or is held to be sacred.

Why is what we did "grossly irreverent"? We were revering God through the means we had available.

[littleflower+JMJ]

because jas not just anyone can have "communion" take place whenever, with whatever, they want.

theres soo much to communion more that you are missing out on.

im sure someone can explain better than i ever could but i just wanted to make that point across.

God bLess!

+JMJ

[Anna]

sorry for my typo, jas, but re-read my post.

I think I explained fairly well why non-ordained laymen sharing pizza and coke have not validly confected the Most Holy Eucharist, and are therefore, making a mockery of the Last Supper.

Jesus said, "Do this in memory of me." Not, "Anyone can use whatever they have handy."

Besides, you miss a very important aspect of the Last Supper.

Just prior to instituting the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ instituted the Sacrament of Holy Orders, thus establishing an ordained priesthood. While washing their feet and commanding them to begin serving his followers, he was giving them a special charism to carry on a priestly function. He then instructed them as to how to celebrate the Eucharist.

What you did, you did with a sincere heart.

However, you've now been informed as to why it is wrong to think that you can mock the Sacred Gift He left to us. This is also why Catholics may not receive communion in other churches: it would be like placing this symbolic action on a par with the Real Presence.

God Bless. <><

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

I wonder what you will all do if unleavened bread and wine became non-existent. Will the pope make up something new?

[Anna]

We have Christ's promise that the gates of hell won't prevail against His Church, so we really don't worry about running out of grape wine and unleavened bread. :)

[[jas]]

Um, please explain the link between the gates of hell not prevailing against the church, and agriculture and viticulture?

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

in other words Jas, if God will not let the gates of Hell prevail againt his Church. He will make sure that the unleavened bread and wine, which are more than just a represenatation of the victory on calvary they are the Church.

I wonder who can draw the line between the Church and God Almighty.

[skuba steve]

And the bread for Communion is specially made with just flour and water -- nothing else. If a hair fell into the dough, however, it wouldn't be enough to invalidate the bread.

and the water comes from exactly the same souce???

The water contains so chemicals or other additives or different minerals?

What if a bit of pizza topping fell into the dough??? Maybe an olive and some pepperoni.

[JP2Iloveyou]

and the water comes from exactly the same souce???

The water contains so chemicals or other additives or different minerals?

What if a bit of pizza topping fell into the dough??? Maybe an olive and some pepperoni.

I can tell you're just being arrogant, but I'll respond to what you asked as though you weren't.

First of all, the water does not have to come from EXACTLY the same source as the water Christ used. Water is water. Two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom combine to make one water molecule. Nothing more, nothing less. Besides, all the water is used for is to purify the wine. The priest pours a couple of drops of water into the wine to be consecrated and says the prayer, "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the Divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity."

Now, for the pizza topping. The utmost care is taken to ensure that the bread to be used at Mass is correctly made. Many times Carmelite sisters do this. They are not eating pizza while making this bread. I would imagine that they are probably praying while baking the bread.

Next, I know this wasn't in your post, but I'm going to address some common questions I've heard from Protestants on the Eucharist.

1) What happens to the Consecrated Hosts that are not consumed?

A1) They are put in a ciborium and put in a tabernacle which is then locked to prevent desecration. If the Mass is taking place outdoors, the priest will often consume the hosts that remain after Communion.

2) How do you know if there is a host in the tabernacle? After all, if you are in the presence of God, shouldn't you show Him some reverence?

A1) Yes, we should and do show God reverence by genuflecting every time we pass infront of a tabernacle with the most Blessed Sacrament reserved in it. We know that Jesus is in the tabernacle because a candle, usually either red or white, is lit next to the tabernacle. If the candle is lit, then Christ is present. Someone in the parish, often times a priest, will make certain that as soon as this candle burns out, a new one is ready to take its place so that the faithful will always know that Christ is present.

3) What if a host gets lost and is sitting in an attic or a basement somewhere?

A3) This should never happen because the priest should take maximum care to be certain that all hosts he consecrated have either been consumed or are reserved back in the tabernacle.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I wonder who can draw the line between the Church and God Almighty.

I dont see a line between the Church and God, since the Church is the Bride of Christ and was Create and IS protected by God, there are no lines that need to be drawn.

As far as pizza topping..ugh, why would you belittle our Lord that way in to a piece of pizza?

St. Paul tells us to take great care when recieving the Eucharist, he says we MUST make an examination of conscience before recieving the Body of Christ, without doing so we would be taking judgement upon ourselves...St. Paul took this seriously, he knew what the Eucharist was.

If you was before St. Peter and you was to tell him that you chose to use a pizza to be Christs Body he would of probably cast you to death right there...why would I say that? Because in Acts two people withheld personal belongings from the Church, Peter excommunicated them by saying they Lied to the Holy Spirit and they both died at his command...how little it tithing compared to the Eucharist, if death is the cause of not tithing right, how much more punishment would there be for commiting a sacrilidgous act towards the Eucharist?

Quote from said Scripture:

      Acts Chapter 4 Verse 32-37

    32

The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.

33

With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all.

34

There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale,

35

and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need.

36

Thus Joseph, also named by the apostles Barnabas (which is translated "son of encouragement"), a Levite, a Cypriot by birth,

37

sold a piece of property that he owned, then brought the money and put it at the feet of the apostles.

Chapter 5

1

1 A man named Ananias, however, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property.

2

He retained for himself, with his wife's knowledge, some of the purchase price, took the remainder, and put it at the feet of the apostles.

3

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?

4

While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God."

5

When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.

6

The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him.

7

After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened.

8

Peter said to her, "Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?" She answered, "Yes, for that amount."

9

Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."

10

At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

11

And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.

12

CatholicAndFanatical

[ironmonk]

As long as flour and grapes are on the earth there will be unleaven bread and wine.

To question about what would happen if all the unleaven bread and wine was no longer on earth is a question to simply argue for the sake of arguing, without any regard for the truth or to learn.

Do you want to change for Christ or be full of foolish pride?.

Don't waste our time.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[MC Just]

Never mind i dont wanna get kicked off Phatmass.

Edited October 2, 2003 by Mc-Just†

[Anna]

,Oct 2 2003, 06:55 AM] Um, please explain the link between the gates of hell not prevailing against the church, and agriculture and viticulture?

God takes care of the sparrows and the lilies of the fields, jas.

We do not fear that He will abandon us, if we are following His commands. Why would He, the Giver of wheat and grapes, and the Giver of Himself on the Cross, deny us the very products that He instructed us to use?

You make it sound as though God isn't in control.

He knows our needs even before we ask.

He knows we need grapes and wheat for liturgical wine and unleavened bread. Will He abandon us, and leave us without the fruits of His bounty so that we can no longer celebrate His Pasch?

What a ridiculous notion!

Fear not! Have Faith in Him, the Bread of Life Who came down from heaven!

"Ego sum panis vivus qui de caelo descendi." <><

[CatholicAndFanatical]

aman Anna, nice post.

it seems like people are side stepping the facts that we present to them and they pick up the 'What If' argument to take us off course.

You can "What If" until your blue in the face if you guys wish, the Eucharist is and always will be the true Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ..still not convinced, go back to page one and read it again.

I know that for some this truth is hard to swallow, just like in scriptures when some of the disciples left Jesus because of this same thing. My parents are also guilty of it, not really fully comprehending how we could be eating the flesh of Christ and drinking Christs Blood, to them it seems all to wierd. My dad even commented one time "I bet you have a hard time getting kids to drink it dont you, telling them its blood"..ignorance, its all it is. Refusing to believe what is shown to you time and time again.

My parents are non practicing pentecostals, or at least my mom is. She is what I would call a typical prot, claims she knows Everything about the Bible and believes it 100%, until it says something that she doesnt believe, like "He who eats my flesh, and drinks my blood will have eternal life". Somehow, I think its too complicated for most to understand, unless your Catholic. Call it what you will, but I think Catholics are 'Called' to be Catholic. Why is it that we can understand, well maybe not understand as much as have faith in, the fact that when Christ said "This IS my body" that he really meant that. Its almost impossible for a Non Catholic to believe that, unless they were called to believe that.

I dunno im rambling, its been waay hectic at work here and I finally got some free time so my fingers wont stop typing.

Anyway, thats the shizzle.

CatholicAndFanatical

[notbilln]

I don't realy have a coherent singular point just acouple of unrelated ones.

1) Jesus specifically used unleven bread as a way to show that he was taking the place of the the old tradition,that he through his death on the cross, reserection and true presence in the euchrist was the New covenent. So it IS important to use unleaven bread, rather then pizza.

2) Wine is more than alcoholic grape jucie. Any wine conosour will tell you as much. It has subltety, varies from year to year. Its quality is dependant upon the weather, soil condition, and fermentation process. It is the culmination of our toil. The scriptual references to wine, as some have mentioned, are numerous. I really think it is best to use wine. In choosing it rather then that whcih would be more convienent to us, we are actively saying that we are willing live our lives according to his will, rather then our own.

3) I have only 2 points, now that I think about it.

4) Actually, they make sence together. So forget waht I said at the begining.

[Anna]

A nickname for wine is "blood of the grape."

That is because, in order to make wine, the grapes must be beaten, stomped on, crushed.

You may see the parallel here, as Christ was beaten and crushed under the weight of the Cross, and taught us to use wine which would be transubstantiated into His Very Own Blood.

Pax Christi. <><

[nippy316]

Okay, I'm confused as to why this little "debate" is going on. If jas isn't Catholic, his communion is just a remembrance. Everyone is arguing things like, "Why would you belittle The Lord to a piece of pizza??" For him it's not The Lord!! If it's just a remembrance, why does it matter? I "remember" The Lord at every supper whether I'm eating spaghetti or chicken. Remembering is remembering. He's not claiming to have the Eucharist under the physical appearance of pizza.

[ironmonk]

Okay, I'm confused as to why this little "debate" is going on. If jas isn't Catholic, his communion is just a remembrance. Everyone is arguing things like, "Why would you belittle The Lord to a piece of pizza??" For him it's not The Lord!! If it's just a remembrance, why does it matter? I "remember" The Lord at every supper whether I'm eating spaghetti or chicken. Remembering is remembering. He's not claiming to have the Eucharist under the physical appearance of pizza.

The Catholic Mass is the body and blood.

For him it IS a remembrance.

Jesus is present spiritually for him.

Jesus is present spiritually and physically for Catholics. (St. John 6)

That is the difference.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[Donna]

nippy (gotta love that name), whether or not jas et al think their communion is not jesus' body blood soul and divinity, the pizza comment is irreverent at best.

The 2nd Commandment forbids making fun of holy things.

Maybe they didn't know this.

It makes one wonder. St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians (11:27):

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread,

or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily,

shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord."

Melchesidech way back in Genesis offered up bread and wine (a pure, immaculate offering, the old Latin Mass says). Christ is a priest forever

according to the order of Melchesidech (Hebrews 7:17).

[Donna]

MC Just, never mind. Just pray a prayer of reparation for them.