Who is a Believer?

[mulls]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Nov 3 2004, 06:17 PM'] I would say yes, it is good to show in public that you are a believer and follower of Christ...but remember what Christ said.

Matthew 6:16 "Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."

17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;


18 [b]That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.[/b]


thats my Christian 2¢. [/quote]
exactly dog.

matthew 6:1

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people [b]in order to be seen by them[/b], for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

but instead...

matthew 5:16

"In the same way, let your light shine before others, [b]so that they may see your good works and give glory to the Father who is in heaven[/b]."

[mulls]

matthew is my favorite book of the moment.

[Catalyst]

I'm a Christian and whats separates my beliefs from yours is that the catholics worship deal people, Ie..Mary and the saints..hailing them. There is no mediator between God and man but Yeshua.
If HE didn't do what He did on the cross Mary would have died in sin...why pray to God to God...the trinity which is one in the same...

[Catalyst]

religion and the absence of truth are strong on this site...

[Dave]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 3 2004, 08:37 PM'] I'm a Christian and whats separates my beliefs from yours is that the catholics worship deal people, Ie..Mary and the saints..hailing them. There is no mediator between God and man but Yeshua.
If HE didn't do what He did on the cross Mary would have died in sin...why pray to God to God...the trinity which is one in the same... [/quote]
Catholics do not worship anyone but God. We honor Mary and the other saints, but our honoring of them doesn't equate to worshiping them. You also forget that the dead who are in heaven are alive in Christ.

We Catholics also believe that Jesus is the one mediator. That we honor Mary and the saints doesn't take away from that.

[D0RK4JP2]

[quote name='Dave' date='Nov 4 2004, 12:19 PM'] Catholics do not worship anyone but God. We honor Mary and the other saints, but our honoring of them doesn't equate to worshiping them. You also forget that the dead who are in heaven are alive in Christ.

We Catholics also believe that Jesus is the one mediator. That we honor Mary and the saints doesn't take away from that. [/quote]
Gday,

I like your post. clear and straight to the point .

A reason why Catholicism is often finger-pointed for worshipping Mary, statues and saints, is because our Church has the fulness of revelation necessary for salvation on earth, our mode of worship is fulfilled and possible to reach a higher level. Our reverence of Mary and saints increase our love and Worship of God because we acknowledge the what his amazing grace can do to anyone. Protestants undermine their own worship by accusing ours of idolatry because, those that believe we are idolaters, are yet to believe that it is possible to revere someone's holiness as a worship of God, not worship somone's holiness because we think they are like God.

JMJ.

[Catalyst]

Its is good only to revere God, He is the only one worth of reverence. You put mary in your prayers, say things like shes full of grace...Jesus' grace is His willingness to work in our lives even tho none of deserve it. Does Mary do things for you?

You think praying for a person while theri dead is gonna help them? theyve made their choices in life, their test is over. I place the word made flesh in High regards..no man or woman...making statues of them and filling your churches with them...having jesus stuck on that cross when He's not on it...stop misleading people and misrepresnting the Lord who died for your sins...everyone put him up there on the cross and you waste your time with dead people....blunt but true...

Edited November 4, 2004 by Catalyst

[Balthazor]

Welcome Catalyst!

Mary is full of grace.....and grace comes from God, truly anyone who was to bear the only son of God would have to be full of grace wouldn;t she?

We are Catholic true, and we remember Christ's great sacrifice on the cross....but we are people of the resurection, not people of death I think you misunderstand our faith.

Please stick around and learn, you are welcome to ask any questions you may have and I am sure someone around here will have an informed answer.

May God bless and keep you,

Balthazor

[D0RK4JP2]

Gday Catalyst and peace be with you,

We can't convert m8, only the Holy Spirit can. I don't want to argue with you, i just want to tell the truth.

You should read a bit of the early Church fathers if you have trouble believing us in the 21st Century. Have a read of St Ignatius of Lloyla.

I guess this type of facet will keep on coming up in this forum; Catholics and non-Catholics duffing it out.

I would ask you Catalyst do you want to convert me or any Catholic to your belief or do you want to disprove the Catholic Church?

I assure you, Mary is not God - if she were then, well, as St Thomas Aquinas puts it through there logically couldn't be a God, because God is logical in a triun form. And i assure you, i do not pray TO statues. It's rather evident to me that whenever i look at a picture of someone i love, it increases that love i have for them, not for the statue lol.

Wouldn't you think revering God is just the beginning? reverence is what one gives to our mother and father, for example, when they ask for something done around the house. We give them reverence because of their position and authority. Their position and authority was given to them by God. The same with Mary man . She's the mother of God - and God gave her that position - so her position deserves reference; plain and simple.

Please read what i write and reply to it. I get really upset when discussions like this happen and one half doesn't acknowledge what the others says. Its untactful, ya know?

JMJ.

Edited November 4, 2004 by D0RK4JP2

[Balthazor]

hey dork!!
I like your accent.
Are you from down under?
I'm from "up nort"
Balthazor

[God Conquers]

Catalyst:

Read your Bible... Jesus speaks through it:

LUKE 20: 37-38

Those who have faith in Christ and covenant with God are not dead but ALIVE IN HIM through the Resurrection.

So, no believer is ever truly dead.... didn't you know you live forever... in one place or another?

How can a Christian worship the dead? Not possible I say.

Besides... we don't worship (the saints).

Ever ask your friends for prayers? Well I do too... except my friends are in Heaven, and right tight with that Holy Trinity. The more people praying the better.

Listen... I love people. I work to bring them salvation through Christ. I want them to have all good things. I am NOT stopping that work when I die. I'm gonna work my but off and pray hard in heaven, while worshiping at the throne of God, asking Him to aid those whom I (and He) loves.

Did Jesus break commandments? Is he talking to dead people here?

MATTHEW 17: 1-6

Listen... I follow Christ's example. He talked it up with the prophets. He was sinless. So if asking a saint for prayers is sinful, then Jesus was sinful. He wasn't... He's the Son of God.

Peace.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 3 2004, 10:03 PM']Its is good only to revere God, He is the only one worth of reverence. You put mary in your prayers, say things like shes full of grace...Jesus' grace is His willingness to work in our lives even tho none of deserve it. Does Mary do things for you? [/quote]
Hello Catalyst and welcome,

I wanted to comment regarding your concern about Mary ("You put mary in your prayers, say things like shes full of grace").

This quote is taken directly from the Gospel of Saint Luke. He is quoting the Archangel Gabriel:
[quote name='Luke 1:28 (Douay Rheims)']And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, [b]full of grace[/b], the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.[/quote]

This is a faithful translation of St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate:
[quote name='Luke 1:28 (Latin Vulgate)']et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have [b]gratia plena [/b]Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus.[/quote]

In protestant translations, the wording is usually "highly favored," based on Greek sources.

In my mind, Mary is both full of grace and highly favored. And, she is blessed among women.

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 3 2004, 10:03 PM']You think praying for a person while theri dead is gonna help them? theyve made their choices in life, their test is over. I place the word made flesh in High regards..no man or woman...making statues of them and filling your churches with them...having jesus stuck on that cross when He's not on it...stop misleading people and misrepresnting the Lord who died for your sins...everyone put him up there on the cross and you waste your time with dead people....blunt but true...[/quote]

There are really two Christian practices here: prayer for the benefit of those in Purgatory and intercessory prayer to the Saints.

[b]Purgatory[/b]

Here's a brief intro to Purgatory. Purgatory is where those who are saved are purified before entering heaven. Purgatory is for those who are in a state of grace (i.e. a friendship with God). Just to be clear: if a soul dies without being in a state of grace, there's really nothing that our prayers can do for that soul.

Catholics believe that souls can only enter heaven when they are perfect (Rev. 21:27). At the same time, souls (in a state of grace) can be "unclean" for a few reasons:

1) There is sin (i.e. venial) that does not kill our soul. (1 John 5:16-17)
2) Even when we are in a state of grace, we have a fallen nature.
3) Even after God has forgiven us for our actual sins, the "wounds" of the sins on our souls still exist. A good metaphor for this is to think about our soul as a fence and our sins as nails hammered into the wood. When the nails (sin) are removed, the holes remain.

At the moment before death, our souls (if we are living in Jesus Christ) are still subject to the three points I mentioned. In heaven, our soul must be perfect. The process that brings us to the perfection necessary to enter heaven is called Purgatory. I suspect that most (if not all) Christians understand that such a transformation must take place in the saved soul...non-Catholics just don't associate the name "Purgatory" with the process.

In my opinion, the imagery of "flames" is appropriate for two reasons. First, flames are easily associated with purification. For example, water can be placed over a flame to kill any harmful bacteria. Second, flames are painful. In this life, leaving behind our sinful habits is can be an extremely painful experience, because we get so attached to our vices. To [i]want [/i]heaven is to leave behind every sin and every desire to sin. It's pretty tough stuff!

Here's a little more on Purgatory:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp[/url]

[b]Intercessory Prayer:[/b]

I assume that you ask other Christians to pray for you, correct? If so, do you think that this practice (in any way) challenges the unique position of Jesus Christ as intercessor between God and man? Is it Biblical?

If we can agree on the usefulness of asking other Christians to pray for us, the only subject left to discuss is the question of who is in the Mystical Body of Christ. Faithful Christians living a life of grace on earth can certainly (at least from the perspective of Catholics) intercede for us if we ask. In addition, we Catholics believe that the saints in heaven are not dead; instead, they are alive in Jesus Christ! They are actually more perfectly joined to the body of Christ when they reach heaven--which really is basically just the state of being in the presence of God.

Here's a little more on praying to the saints:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/url]

God bless!

[D0RK4JP2]

[quote name='Balthazor' date='Nov 4 2004, 03:04 PM'] hey dork!!
I like your accent.
Are you from down under?
I'm from "up nort"
Balthazor [/quote]
lol,

Yeh, im australian. my accent....crums, can you tell on a forum .

Ahhhh, where is 'up nort'? Do you mean like nth hemisphere or nth like bundy and cairns and stuff?

JMJ

[Balthazor]

up in da' nort woods of wisconsin
in the area commonly known around here as "up Nort"

yeah your accent shows on the forum....lol

if you want to recognize someone from Wisconsin it is really easy....we end our sentences with prepositions, ya know?

[yiannii]

Hey DORK4JP2,

Did you go to Adore 04 in Melbourne?

[yiannii]

On election day (in Aust) I was handing out how to vote cards and standing next to me was this "AOG" Christian handing out how to vote cards for the Family First party.

So we were chatting about general things and as soon as he found out that I was Catholic the next few words to come out of his mouth were: "Oh, yeah, well, there are a lot of things that Catholics do that I don't agree with!"

I don't know, but I just thought that it was rude! I mean we had only been talking for just over five minutes. Later on he proceeded to tell me where Catholicism is wrong and all this stuff about the Bible etc etc. Oh and he tried to tell me that I wasn't a Christian.

I was caught off guard and didn't really know what to say in defence of my faith - so I tried to keep the conversation focussed on what we had in common, you know, being brothers in Christ and all.....

But seriously, I know I am supposed to love everyone, but GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!

OK I'm over it.

[D0RK4JP2]

Gday,

Yianni, this is rather scary...this is very rather scary .

1stly, i did go to adore04. i was one of those poor chumps who had to give a sharing; and for my humility...on purity . Will you be at the nxt one in sydney? I'm definetly going .

Aite aite aite, i was handing out how to vote cards too for the election, and i was handing out for the nationals and i was standing next to some family first people to. I was at salisbury for the moreton electorate. I was the roudy one at our election - voicing my very audible oppinion on all the other party's pro-death policies (i was not popular that day )

I live in Brisbane.

JMJ.

[yiannii]

LOL!!! I was handing out how to vote cards for the Greens cuz they are so cool....




NOT!!!!



Nah I was handing out for the Liberal Party so we were on the same side.


About Adore in Syd - yeah I plan to go but we will see what happens. Are the same people organising it?

P.S. I'm from Melbourne... oh and nice to meet you by the way!

P.P.S. What's news with the bishop of yours? I haven't heard anything for a while - last thing I heard he was trying to sue AD2000 for some article they published....LOL

[yiannii]

oh yeah just found out that i am on the adore website....LOL

[mulls]

"let's get back on topic and reply to my posts please" bump