Who is a Believer?

[Balthazor]

mulls,
I understand your earlier point that not all people that are just because someone says they ar Catholic or Baptist or even just plain Christian that they obviously don't practice or for that matter preach. Some people are just numb.

But I geuss that question in my mind is why do a lot of people of potestan denominations think that Catholicism is something other than Christianity?

It may sound odd to some people, but I know people who have actually treated me like I was not a Christian, like I was not a believer or something.

I am very devoted to my Church and I am active in my parish. I read scripture, I do my best to follow God's word, I pray and probably most importantly I believe.
I don't want this to become about how holy I am, because I am not perfect...but I just wanted to illustrate that I am not one of those "nominal indifferent Catholics" as lumberjack says.
I believe deepley, so when someone questions my devotion just because of my denomination.......well I am taken a back. I just wanted to know why someone would question my belief in Jesus, in God and the Holy Spirit just because I am Catholic...

Balthazor

[mulls]

it's not about questioning your individual faith and sincerity, in my opinion. it's making sure that your church has not taught you posion. i'm sorry to say that the catholic church has lot of flaws and blatantly wrong doctrines in the eyes of many people when compared to scripture.

if somebody questions you, you can try to let them know that you have a deep, personal relationship with God, made possible by the sacrifice of the Son, and you live an active, Spirit-filled life. if you've made that commitment to Christ, and passed from death unto life, then nobody can question your personal faith. as long it's real, legit, sincere.

but they will always question the catholic church, and therefore they will question what you believe. hopefully they're just looking out for you, but often it's out of spite.

that's as nicely as i can put it.

[D0RK4JP2]

mulls,

I agree that salvation is possible to any of the sincere...but any sincere person would become Catholic because God would not deprive anyone of that grace unless there is no way of imposing it on someone - pigmies in the Congo for example; there ain't many Jesuit missionaries travelling through that country .

I've got a question for you, what do you think the 'Church' is? And If the Catholic Church is wrong, which 'Church' is right, and more importantly, which one claims to be the Church that Christ founded on Peter? It's all well and good to say the >'Church'< has defects in it, but what do you mean by >'Church'< there? It's good to distinguish your meaning so it's not taken as a vague generalisation.

JMJ.

Edited November 5, 2004 by D0RK4JP2

[Budge]

Many "protestants" or Christians disagree with Catholic doctrines. I am an ex-Catholic. I do believe there are Catholics who are indeed SAVED as it were, which may surprise some here since I do moderate a board where we discuss Catholic issues and doctrines. If a Catholic has saving faith in Jesus Christ, they will be saved like any other Christian--(I dont believe in hardcore OSAS so this would depend on their relationship to God, perserverance etc) My worry for Catholics is that they are taught to look to the church to save them and taught to receive Jesus in the sacraments rather then being taught that one needs to be saved and born again of the spirit.

[Brother Adam]

Yes Budge, that is a typical Fundamentalist worldview and it completely removes you from not only almost all of Christianity for 2000 years, but removes you from scriptural teaching as well. As a simple answer, Catholics do not believe they are saved by faith in the Church for redemption or saved by faith in the sacraments for regeneration.

The biggest problem with your post is this word "Rather" in your last line. Rather has nothing to do with it. Receiving GRACE in the sacraments and being born again are not mutually exclusive. In fact your belief about removing the faith from the nature of a covenant would be totally absurd to the first Christians.

Consider that all the sacraments are scriptural.
Consider all of the Protestant fathers believed in at least 2 sacraments.
Consider that every single sacrament is typologically biblical and mentioned in scripture as conveying a grace.

I suggest reading "Swear to God: The Promise and Power of the Sacraments".

Any Catholic who denies personal faith in Jesus Christ, any Catholic who does not believe in Jesus, is no Catholic at all and denies the fundamental teaching of the Church.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='budge']I dont believe in hardcore OSAS so this would depend on their relationship to God, perserverance etc).[/quote]
Does this mean that you believe in a "mild" version of OSAS or that you don't believe in OSAS?

[quote name='budge']My worry for Catholics is that they are taught to look to the church to save them and taught to receive Jesus in the sacraments rather then being taught that one needs to be saved and born again of the spirit.[/quote]

Let's see. Receiving Jesus in the sacraments? Hmmm...

As Divine Providence would have it, I was just listening to the words of [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians11.htm#v23"]St. Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians[/url](I'm lucky enough to have audio CDs of the NT):
[quote name='1 Cor 11:23-29']For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.  Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.  A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.  For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.[/quote]

And this week (more providence), my Bible study is on [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john6.htm#v48"]St. John's Gospel, chapter 6[/url]:

[quote name='John 6:48-58']"I am the bread of life.  Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.  I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.  Whoever eats  my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.  For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.  Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.  Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.  This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."[/quote]

My worry for non-Catholics is that they are taught that "being saved" is a single event and not a life-long journey, rather than being taught that they can receive Jesus and be nourished by the grace-giving sacraments that He gave His Church.

God Bless!

[D0RK4JP2]

Just looking at the forum topic; it says 'who's a believer'

...who governs what 'belief' the 'believer' must have to even be a 'believer'?

JMJ

[mulls]

[quote name='D0RK4JP2' date='Nov 6 2004, 02:47 AM'] Just looking at the forum topic; it says 'who's a believer'

...who governs what 'belief' the 'believer' must have to even be a 'believer'?

JMJ [/quote]
God.


trick question?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' date='Nov 6 2004, 12:41 AM'] Many "protestants" or Christians disagree with Catholic doctrines. I am an ex-Catholic. I do believe there are Catholics who are indeed SAVED as it were, which may surprise some here since I do moderate a board where we discuss Catholic issues and doctrines. If a Catholic has saving faith in Jesus Christ, they will be saved like any other Christian--(I dont believe in hardcore OSAS so this would depend on their relationship to God, perserverance etc) My worry for Catholics is that they are taught to look to the church to save them and taught to receive Jesus in the sacraments rather then being taught that one needs to be saved and born again of the spirit. [/quote]
How can you moderate a board and discuss Catholicism when you don't even know Catholicism [ as evidenced by your basic misunderstandings of what we actually believe]?

[Lavender]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 6 2004, 08:35 AM'] How can you moderate a board and discuss Catholicism when you don't even know Catholicism [ as evidenced by your basic misunderstandings of what we actually believe]? [/quote]
Ditto. All Catholic-dissers must atleast know what they're talking about before I will acknowledge them in an actual debate. Sorry if that offends anyone, but I put up with a lot of carp for being Catholic. :irate: Usually from my very close friends, which hurts twice as much.

[Lavender]

*carp