SirMyztiq Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Nov 8 2004, 12:23 AM'] which totally takes the procreative element that is intrinsic in the sexual act out of it and makes it purely for pleasure.....that is not in Gods plan i know that much [/quote] Well let me take a look... We hold this truths to be self evident" And it goes on to say that they are "unalianable rights" and they are "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" But that is assuming that the person is already born and not inside the mother. Which then wouldn't apply. But since I can't look back and ask the people who wrote it then it's nothing but guesses from me. Unless that is Bush appoints some wackos who think they know what they are talking about and decided to make decisions that would intrude with liberty and women's pursuit of happiness. Beats life 2 out of 3. And Volo... I don't care. I honestly don't. Don't try to give me the whole "well sex is wrong because a book said somebody said it along time ago!" You have to be more conscious about this. Do you honestly believe that all women base their decision of abortion in a very shortsighted and unfocused perspective? It's known that many women go into deep emotional problems after abortion and it's not because of the abortion. It's all of these conservative propaganda that attacks their judgement and characters, labels them as murderers and harrasses them constantly. Totally blacking out their own personal reasons of why they went ahead with the abortion in the first place. And you can call it generalizing but it is not. I've seen it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 ill pray for you sirmyztiq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 and usually one of those emotions is guilt....you usually have guilt when you know you've done something wrong.....the Church hates the sin, loves the sinner....Project Rachel and other programs have been created to help these women who suffer these problems...quoting from Project Rachel's website: [quote]The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and ... does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. For over 16 years, women and men have been coming to Project Rachel, the post-abortion ministry of the Catholic Church, for help in healing their emotional and spiritual wounds. The priests and counselors in the Project Rachel network understand the pain and loss that follow abortion. They have led thousands of grieving women and men from despair to hope and peace. [/quote] we've never said sex is wrong! sex is good, sex is great, sex is wonderful and awesome!!!! but what God gave us as a wonderful thing to bring married people closer together....Satan has twisted it, turned it into something that God never intended... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMyztiq Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 8 2004, 12:27 AM'] 1. Babies are not a punishment. They are a gift from God, even illegitimate children. 2. It is shortsighted, rather, to imply that people should be allowed to do what is at the very least possibly murder and at the truth of the matter is genocide. 3. The Church does not preach against better methods of birth control. The Church preaches against all artificial birth control, none of which approach abstinence, the 100% effective birth control and NFP, the 98-99% effective "birth control" (although, I don't like to use that term, since his has the connotation of contraception). It seems to me that the Church is advocating the best, and why should we aim for any lower or expect any less? 4. A woman who has an abortion proves herself far more irresponsible by procuring an abortion than she does by carrying the child to term and letting the child live. [/quote] 1. Yes it is. And the whole statement that marie said proves it. "Illegitimate children" huh? So only those born under your standards are approved. SHORTSIGHTED? Yup. 2. It's not murder and genocide is trying to kill of an entire ethnical, political or national group. The baby isn't even born and regardless of all the evidence you think you have about it. It's not the Governments job to judge when a person is alive or not. That isn't the case. As long as the baby is in the mothers womb it's her body noting that it's growing of the mothers nutrients and energy just like any other part of her body. Don't go preaching to me about comparing unborn babies and parts of the body but they both have the same principle. We have the right to do with our body as we like and as long as it's part of the womans body we don't have a say in it. 3. I don't care what the Church preaches. The Church only preaches abstinence and while you're right that is the only 100% way to stop it, guess what buddy, most of the time those people don't really think about what the Church says and by only providing them with one option of birth control then we are preaching less safe sex. Condoms, the pill and the day after pill are all good forms of birth control if used properly. But appereantly you can't use them so the only option is to have sex! YES! I'm sure thousands of teenagers prefer that option not the "ill pull out" one or the "I won't **m in you" or "you won't get pregnant" 4. Nope. A woman who has an abortion might not EVEN be a woman by todays standards. Responsibility is knowing that the option of abortion is still there and knowing that the option might bring emotional effects. This is were information comes in. If that information is being blocked off by conservative loons the whole spectrum of choice is reduced to just having the baby. By todays standards of abortion a woman can't even think about it because of how difficult it is to even talk to somebody about it. Being pro-choice isn't being pure "pro-abortion" Pro-choice deals with the knowledge of the different choices a woman has. And must of the time abortion is put forward as a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 8 2004, 01:34 AM'] Well let me take a look... We hold this truths to be self evident" And it goes on to say that they are "unalianable rights" and they are "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" But that is assuming that the person is already born and not inside the mother. Which then wouldn't apply. But since I can't look back and ask the people who wrote it then it's nothing but guesses from me. Unless that is Bush appoints some wackos who think they know what they are talking about and decided to make decisions that would intrude with liberty and women's pursuit of happiness. Beats life 2 out of 3. And Volo... I don't care. I honestly don't. Don't try to give me the whole "well sex is wrong because a book said somebody said it along time ago!" You have to be more conscious about this. Do you honestly believe that all women base their decision of abortion in a very shortsighted and unfocused perspective? It's known that many women go into deep emotional problems after abortion and it's not because of the abortion. It's all of these conservative propaganda that attacks their judgement and characters, labels them as murderers and harrasses them constantly. Totally blacking out their own personal reasons of why they went ahead with the abortion in the first place. And you can call it generalizing but it is not. I've seen it happen. [/quote] 1. You cannot assume what the founding fathers meant. It is likely that they meant those who were alive, thus promising life to those who already had it. This includes babies before birth. 2. How would any "wackos" choose to intrude the liberty of women's pursuit of happiness? It seems to me that saving the lives of women, prenatal included, ensures their ability to pursue happiness. 3. If VoloHumilisEsse told you that sex is wrong, then he was incorrect. If you believe that Catholics think sex is wrong, you have another thing coming. However, sex is only truly beautiful when it fits within the boundaries for which it was created. The rules the Church applies to sex is not to make it boring or restrictive, but rather to release its true nature and potential and ensure that it stays a beautiful and precious thing. 4. I've met women who've had abortion and repented. How is it that the same "conservative propaganda" which allegedly gives them such pain also cures them and heals them of their wounds? Naturally, the ethics upheld in part by the Church must be applied with charity, and many women are offended by them, not out of being genuinely shocked by the "propaganda," but rather because they realize that the "propaganda" is correct and they do not want to face the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMyztiq Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Lil Red' date='Nov 8 2004, 12:42 AM'] and usually one of those emotions is guilt....you usually have guilt when you know you've done something wrong.....the Church hates the sin, loves the sinner....Project Rachel and other programs have been created to help these women who suffer these problems...quoting from Project Rachel's website: we've never said sex is wrong! sex is good, sex is great, sex is wonderful and awesome!!!! but what God gave us as a wonderful thing to bring married people closer together....Satan has twisted it, turned it into something that God never intended... [/quote] I agree with everything you said about sex until you got to the whole God part. I don't know. Sex shouldn't be placed with marriage in my opinion. Virginity is very sacred to alot of girls and not because of religious principles but just because is almost that mark that leads you into womanhood. When you make a girl wait till marriage the rush for marriage might be greater. That is what is happening to alot of relationships today. So many get together just to have sex or because they think they are in love. Resulting in the high divorce rate. To me sex should be with that somebody you know you love. Regardless of your age...well at least 16...when you do lose that virginity you have to be able to look back and know that you loved that person and if you have moved on then there should be no remorse. Love isn't a defined thing and marriage doesn't make love real. Edited November 8, 2004 by SirMyztiq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 8 2004, 01:34 AM'] And it goes on to say that they are "unalianable rights" and they are "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" But that is assuming that the person is already born and not inside the mother. [/quote] How exactly did you come to this assumption? I didn't happen to see it spelled out anywhere. Does that mean that a baby that is 1 minute away from being born is not termed living? According to science, to be alive, something must have these traits: Living things are made of cells. Living things obtain and use energy. Living things grow and develop. Living things reproduce. Living things respond to their environment. Living things adapt to their environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 8 2004, 01:45 AM'] 1. Yes it is. And the whole statement that marie said proves it. "Illegitimate children" huh? So only those born under your standards are approved. SHORTSIGHTED? Yup. [/quote] How exactly did what I say mean having a baby is a punishment? Having a baby is never a punishment. It is only the [u]result[/u] of having sex and getting pregnant. Obviously you must equivocate taking responsiblity for your actions with a punishment. Children are a blessing...all of them. If a person cannot take care of their baby they should give it up for adoption. There are thousands of people who want more than anything else to have children and are not able. They [u]want[/u] to adopt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMyztiq Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 8 2004, 12:48 AM'] I1. You cannot assume what the founding fathers meant. It is likely that they meant those who were alive, thus promising life to those who already had it. This includes babies before birth. 2. How would any "wackos" choose to intrude the liberty of women's pursuit of happiness? It seems to me that saving the lives of women, prenatal included, ensures their ability to pursue happiness. 3. If VoloHumilisEsse told you that sex is wrong, then he was incorrect. If you believe that Catholics think sex is wrong, you have another thing coming. However, sex is only truly beautiful when it fits within the boundaries for which it was created. The rules the Church applies to sex is not to make it boring or restrictive, but rather to release its true nature and potential and ensure that it stays a beautiful and precious thing. 4. I've met women who've had abortion and repented. How is it that the same "conservative propaganda" which allegedly gives them such pain also cures them and heals them of their wounds? Naturally, the ethics upheld in part by the Church must be applied with charity, and many women are offended by them, not out of being genuinely shocked by the "propaganda," but rather because they realize that the "propaganda" is correct and they do not want to face the truth. [/quote] 1. I think that is what I said. You know the whole "guesses" part. And you just guessed to saying that "includes babies before birth" You just don't know. 2. Hmm...By blocking off a valid option due to religious reasons? Yeah, I think thats it. It seems to me that by thinking that you are saving lifes due to making women give birth to a baby is pretty much in the real of intruding in liberty. Yes you might be right but that isn't supposed to be the only option. 3. Hmm...No. 4. Repented why? Because the propaganda is being shoved in their faces! I don't know about you but I know that if I had made a choice and then had somebody label me and call me various names and at the same time make it unholy I would definately get emotional problems. Why don't you just leave those people alone and if you are really so loving of unborn babies why don't you focus on that and some real reasons instead of making it a dark and evil thing that your religion leads you to believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 7 2004, 11:19 PM'] Qfnol... Ever since this Government was created the power has always belonged to the people and it was the Government's task to protect and protect the people's rights. Health aid was introduced as a part to actually carry out the duties that the Government has always supposed to have. Besides nobody but the Republicans whine about it. Anyways the fact is that it exist and Republicans have a very hard time finding money for it. [/quote] Actually, it's the government's job just to protect our rights, for if it was the government's job to provide them, I better be getting a nice home soon. I have a right to a nice home. The government shouldn't give it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 8 2004, 01:49 AM'] Sex shouldn't be placed with marriage in my opinion. Virginity is very sacred to alot of girls and not because of religious principles but just because is almost that mark that leads you into womanhood. When you make a girl wait till marriage the rush for marriage might be greater. That is what is happening to alot of relationships today. So many get together just to have sex or because they think they are in love. Resulting in the high divorce rate. [/quote] The trend today is that people are waiting under they are older to get married. They are not rushing in..... People used to get married when they were a lot younger and the divorce rate was a lot lower. Sex is something sacred and powerful. When you have sex you give a piece of yourself away. It is something to be cherished and revered, not cheapened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMyztiq Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='marielapin' date='Nov 8 2004, 12:54 AM'] How exactly did what I say mean having a baby is a punishment? Having a baby is never a punishment. It is only the [u]result[/u] of having sex and getting pregnant. Obviously you must equivocate taking responsiblity for your actions with a punishment. Children are a blessing...all of them. If a person cannot take care of their baby they should give it up for adoption. There are thousands of people who want more than anything else to have children and are not able. They [u]want[/u] to adopt. [/quote] No...Having sex results in pregnancy. That's where the cause and effect ends. The results after that can differ. I agree with everything you said. A person should give it up for adoption. I agree. But see, adoption doesn't have to be the only choice. I don't know...if I was a pregnant woman knowing that a huge piece of fleshand bones was going to come out of a tiny hole in my body would be of some significance. I've said it before. If you people could find a way to have those babies for those women then I would be behind you 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMyztiq Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='marielapin' date='Nov 8 2004, 01:00 AM'] The trend today is that people are waiting under they are older to get married. They are not rushing in..... People used to get married when they were a lot younger and the divorce rate was a lot lower. Sex is something sacred and powerful. When you have sex you give a piece of yourself away. It is something to be cherished and revered, not cheapened. [/quote] That is your own view on it. I agree there are many times that girls have sex with nothing more than a sexual need. But you can't just group all sex in that category. Marriage doesn't make sex any more loyal and worthy if it isn't done with the love that is supposed to be there. I'm not saying that is the case all the time but I'm sure that all marriages aren't just because of love. I don't feel that way and neither does my girlfriend. And marie...show me links. Last time I checked the divorce rate was thru the roof. Also alot of young people get married because they are having a baby. That isn't a reason to get married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 8 2004, 01:20 AM'] Todays teens are way more liberal than you would expect. [/quote] It's called brain-washing. Most will grow out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 (edited) [quote] Todays teens are way more liberal than you would expect.[/quote] could this be because of the liberal media (mtv, etc....) that is pushing their agendas just as you have suggested that the conservative media is? edit:....would it be possible to move this to the debate table? seems more fitting there.... Edited November 8, 2004 by VoloHumilisEsse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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