The Democratic Party is Evil.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 15 2004, 02:47 PM'] The republican party is evil because of the national agenda it has.

They aggressivly push:[list]
[*]Feminism
[*]The use of contraception
[*]Secularism (at the very best a secular State)
[*]Various other "pernicious errors" -Popes against Modernism/Americanism
[/list] [/quote]
Looks like we have another winner for not catching the gist of the main post.


BTW... what you say is untrue in regard to feminism, use of contraception, and secularism. This shows that you are unaware of the national agenda.



Please go back and read post one again for the point of this post.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Azriel]

Dude, even I get it.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 15 2004, 02:13 PM'] Looks like we have another winner for not catching the gist of the main post.


BTW... what you say is untrue in regard to feminism, use of contraception, and secularism. This shows that you are unaware of the national agenda.



Please go back and read post one again for the point of this post.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
I understand quite well... I am not a Democrat (nor a Republican)--I am a conservative. The point is the same as you made: if it doesn't include you, then don't throw a temper tantrum... but you should know that Americanism is a heresy condemned by the Church.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot immodesty in the list... I suppose that falls under feminism--Fox and others are just as bad if not worse than the democrats about those kinds of things. It is their "right" they say to look at pin-up calendars and the like. In any event--no, I am right about the Republican party and anyone who believes in the American system. The Reps are for feminism (women voting, holding office, working in the workplace instead of at home, etc., as you can see the "W is for Women" and the like signs/stickers). They are for contraception, too. Most Reps are WASP: White Anglo Saxon protestant. That means: nothing wrong with contraception. Just because they "teach" abstinence doesn't mean they are against contraception. 92% of Americans are for teaching contraception to high schoolers in their "sex ed" progs. That means at BEST (even if not one dem is against contracption), 8% of Reps out of about 50% are against contraception. As far as secularism, yes, it is true: no one (or almost no one) in the Rep party is for amending the Constitution to recognize any religion whatsoever, especially Catholicism. That means: if they are against a State that has a religion, they are SECULARISTS (or as I said, at least for a secular State, which is a heresy).

Edited November 15, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Nov 15 2004, 06:19 AM'] JMJ
11/15 - St. Albertus Magnus

I've seen something applied to another situation, but I think it will work here.

A Democrat is evil, mathematically...

Everyone knows, Democrats cost time and money.

Democrats = Time x Money

But Time is money.

Democrats = Money x Money

But, according to Paul, money is the root of all evil.

Money = root(Evil).

So,

Democrats = root(Evil)

Therefore,

Democrat = Evil

(equally applicable to Republicans ) [/quote]
with all due respect, that formula is reserved for women.
Oh, and when can we expect some respect for our beliefs here? How un-PC to attack Catholicism to Catholics. It's like telling a Jew they killed Jesus isn't it? kind of wrong eh? apparently not. double standard. so much for equality. If I can't make fun of pagans then I sure don't want some jerk blasting my religion.

Edited November 15, 2004 by toledo_jesus

[ironmonk]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 15 2004, 08:03 PM'] I understand quite well... I am not a Democrat (nor a Republican)--I am a conservative. The point is the same as you made: if it doesn't include you, then don't throw a temper tantrum... but you should know that Americanism is a heresy condemned by the Church.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot immodesty in the list... I suppose that falls under feminism--Fox and others are just as bad if not worse than the democrats about those kinds of things. It is their "right" they say to look at pin-up calendars and the like. In any event--no, I am right about the Republican party and anyone who believes in the American system. The Reps are for feminism (women voting, holding office, working in the workplace instead of at home, etc., as you can see the "W is for Women" and the like signs/stickers). They are for contraception, too. Most Reps are WASP: White Anglo Saxon protestant. That means: nothing wrong with contraception. Just because they "teach" abstinence doesn't mean they are against contraception. 92% of Americans are for teaching contraception to high schoolers in their "sex ed" progs. That means at BEST (even if not one dem is against contracption), 8% of Reps out of about 50% are against contraception. As far as secularism, yes, it is true: no one (or almost no one) in the Rep party is for amending the Constitution to recognize any religion whatsoever, especially Catholicism. That means: if they are against a State that has a religion, they are SECULARISTS (or as I said, at least for a secular State, which is a heresy). [/quote]
We're talking about political agendas... not their moral issues in their churches...

Those things you listed are not on the rep. agenda nationwide. The reps are not fighting for them, if anything it's against them.

The old type of feminism (1900's) is good... the new type of femi-nazi's is not and is not a republican agenda.

"W" for Women... is a play on words... it's not feminist.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[SirMyztiq]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 15 2004, 08:20 AM'] Ok guy... whatever LOL Ironic coming from me... kid, you've got no idea who you're talking to. I have a science background and once was pre-med. I'm sorry if the logic posted was above your head. I've listened to all sides of the arguement... and your side fails. If you ever want to hope "winning" a debate, you better learn what and why your enemy (us) believes. Only a fool would ignore it.

If you want to go on being ignorant and lazy, that's your God given right. But you know that you speak from ignorance because you are unstudied.

It's not observation unless you've listened to the other side. Open your eyes and ears man if you wish to be intelligent.

Only a fool argues a point without listening to all sides of the arguement. You haven't listened or learned our side or you wouldn't make some of the statements you made. You will only understand what I meant by this if you read the pages to the links that I provided.

I'm not going to waste my time or anyone elses time by replying anymore unless you educate yourself and come up with some logic from studying both sides.

If we were wrong, you could easily find holes in the links I provided... maybe your scared of the truth... only you and God know.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Irony:
A Catholic telling me that I'm being told what to think.


Iron:

Do you think I honestly care? You can throw as many titles as me as you possible can but the truth is that you are partisan when it comes to your opinion and that even if you do have a "higher" education you're believes only make you shape and morph your perspective to fit your position...or the church's position at least.

And to have you know I'm a senior in high schoo. Not too big. But I do have a background on Physics(I passed the AP with a 4) I have a background in Biology(Passed AP with a 3) and environmental science(passed with a 4) I also passed, english, computer science and calculus. I'm more than likely a sophmore in college if all my credits are accepted.


But I don't throw them around to make others feel inferior to me. Honestly if that is all you have going for you then it's sad.

I refuse to read the pages you provided because those are Catholic and religiously affiliated pages. I read Time, newsweek and we talk about Stem Cell alot in Biology and Health class. That is it. Now whether my opinion was molded under the influence of those teachers who are pro-SCR then so be it.

The whole excuse over the Nazis is UNRELATED. It's very arbitrary to bring in the Nazi's to an issue that is not even close to what the Nazi's were about. The not only tested on humans they delibaretely tried to wipe out an entire race. Scientist are not trying to wipe out an entire race and they don't choose embryos based on anything other than to try to improve the general health of the world. There is no black market behind this and everything is done within the realm of science. And it's useless for you to keep telling me that the Nazis also believed that what they were doing were also "within the realm of science" because their views were not only skewed their motives might not have been for the health of humans and noting that they felt jews were inferior they might not even believe that their bodies were in anyway the same as the Azerian(sp)

Thats almost like if connected the Crusades to the war in Iraq or Afghanistan which to many believe it's almost a religious war. Are we trying to impose or views on them? To them we are Are christians taking advantage of this and going overthere and ridiculing away their belives and stating that Christianity is the only way? Yes. Are we hiding this under false pretences that it's what God wants us to do? Yes.

I'm not scared of the truth. The truth is that some people are too blinded by their *blind* faith and fail to recognize that not everything and not everyone looks at issues and connects them with a book.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote]But I don't throw them around to make others feel inferior to me.[/quote]
Rest assured, a highschool senior with a few AP classes isn't going to make many people feel inferior. It's kinda cute that you're concerned for us, though.

[quote]The whole excuse over the Nazis is UNRELATED. It's very arbitrary to bring in the Nazi's to an issue that is not even close to what the Nazi's were about.[/quote]
I made a comparison that shows the similarities. You have done nothing to refute my posts, aside from a little [i]ad hominem[/i].

[quote]The(y) not only tested on humans they delibaretely tried to wipe out an entire race. Scientist are not trying to wipe out an entire race and they don't choose embryos based on anything other than to try to improve the general health of the world.[/quote]
So if german scientists were performing immoral scientific experiments on the mentally retarded, would you find this problematic? The Jewish people were not the only victims of these "progressive scientists."

[quote]There is no black market behind this and everything is done within the realm of science.[/quote]
There is a market for human embryos. It's happening both legally (check NIH) and illegally, though never morally.

BTW, what is your definition of "the realm of science"? You've used this phrase a few times.

[quote]And it's useless for you to keep telling me that the Nazis also believed that what they were doing were also "within the realm of science" because their views were not only skewed their motives might not have been for the health of humans and noting that they felt jews were inferior they might not even believe that their bodies were in anyway the same as the Azerian(sp)[/quote]
That's a loooooong run-on sentence. Punctuation is your friend.

I think you mean Aryans. Though it's pretty obvious that the Nazi's believed in racial superiority, this really isn't germane (haha). Heck, scientists today think that monkeys, pigs, and mice are inferior; yet, they do all sorts of testing with animal subjects.

I suppose it's useless to keep telling you that what these scientists were doing was "within the realm of science" (whatever that means). But, if you don't want to believe me, go ahead and use your enlightened mind and do some research on the topic. In one of my earlier posts, I placed a link to a book on Amazon.com. The book I listed is a good start.

[Iacobus]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Nov 14 2004, 10:55 AM'] Iron,
How about being a "Pro-Life Democrat"? Isn't that just about like being a missionary to bring the good aspects of the Democratic Party, ie:
-Access to medical care
-Care for indigent
-Care for immigrants
-Having the 'haves' help the 'have-nots'

to the forefront of the Party movers and shakers and bringing those principals to bear on the other planks of the platform and defeating their support for death via abortion? [/quote]
To get those issues up and fix the platform will leaving the party do any good? Will we do more power as members than as a 3rd Party?

[XIX]

[quote]Do you think I honestly care? You can throw as many titles as me as youossible can but the truth is that you are partisan when it comes to your opinion and that even if you do have a "higher" education you're believes only make you shape and morph your perspective to fit your position...or the Church's position at least.[/quote]

As opposed to fitting one's Democratic Party position? Honestly, that assertion that I just made about you is no less baseless than the one you make about Catholics. You really have no concrete arguments to say that Catholics are blind followers, except for the fact that we all tend to agree with the Church. However, you could say the samep thing about Democrats or Republicans for that matter--they all tend to follow the party line. The only real difference is that Catholics firmly believe in Jesus Christ and the Church which He has established for us. I mean, it's not good to follow it blindly--you want to know enough about your faith to know why you believe what you believe. However, we also believe--fervently-- that this is the Church that God gave us, and if that is the case, then surely we should be able to put a lot of trust into it. I'm not trying to shove anything down your throat, I'm just trying to explain where we are coming from.

[quote]The whole excuse over the Nazis is UNRELATED. It's very arbitrary to bring in the Nazi's to an issue that is not even close to what the Nazi's were about. The not only tested on humans they delibaretely tried to wipe out an entire race. [/quote]

The point isn't why the people die. The point is that more humans perish due to being aborted/stem cell research than they did as a result of the Nazis. Whether somebody dies for the sake of science or for the sake of a super race, the end result is the same. That person is dead. And in the case of stem cell research, the embryo dies for nothing. Why do I say nothing? Because in 20+ years of stem research, not a single patient has ever been treated. That is a long, long time to be waiting on potential and promise. Granted, this isn't a mirror image of the Holocaust, but the end result is the same: millions die.

[quote]I refuse to read the pages you provided because those are Catholic and religiously affiliated pages. I read Time, newsweek and we talk about Stem Cell alot in Biology and Health class. That is it. Now whether my opinion was molded under the influence of those teachers who are pro-SCR then so be it. [/quote]

You seem to contradict yourself here. Why do you refuse to be brainwashed by people who are against SCR, yet you're fine with getting the same from somebody who is pro-SCR? Personally, I've read boatloads of SCR stuff from both sides of the issue, and have come to the conclusion that creating and destroying life to possibly (most likely never) save another person is just wrong.

[quote]and noting that they felt jews were inferior they might not even believe that their bodies were in anyway the same as the Azerian(sp)[/quote]

Right. And people today believe that the unborn are inferior.

[quote]I'm not scared of the truth. The truth is that some people are too blinded by their *blind* faith and fail to recognize that not everything and not everyone looks at issues and connects them with a book.[/quote]

I haven't sited the Bible once in this whole post!

God bless you!! :ph34r:

[jasJis]

SirMyztiq,
You should change your name to "SirMiztaken". You may be 'educated', but pendantic knowledge is not intelligence. Refusing to listen to another's viewpoint is insistence on ignorance.

If you had really 'read up' on embryonic research in something other than People magazine you would know that adult stem cells are the best hope because they have already produced cures. Embryonic stem cells are just a theoretical hope, and have not been able to produce anything because of their inherent instablity that they cannot direct or control. Valuable research $$ is being wasted on embryonic stem cells because of abortion politics, not because of efficacy. The money would be more productive if it was spent on adult stem cells, a more matured avenue, but the pro-abortionists would rather it be spent on embryonic stem cells because it removes some to the 'negative perceptions' of abortion.

If you didn't have 'politically correct' history and science books, you would know about the moral delimma that scientists have faced when deciding what information to use from the Nazi 'research'. The vast majority of what we know about thermal effects on humans is from Nazi 'experiments'. It has helped with the development of clothing for skin diving, artic exploration, space exploration, and heart surgery that cools the body. Ethics considers the objective and subjuctive value of actions and consequences. Humanity has long figured out that the ends do not justify the means. Get up to speed dude. Don't cling to archaic thought and think it's some great "Truth' we've forgotten or weren't ready for. Thinking outside the box means rising up, not falling out the bottom.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 15 2004, 08:25 PM'] We're talking about political agendas... not their moral issues in their churches...

Those things you listed are not on the rep. agenda nationwide. The reps are not fighting for them, if anything it's against them.

The old type of feminism (1900's) is good... the new type of femi-nazi's is not and is not a republican agenda.

"W" for Women... is a play on words... it's not feminist.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Feminism is NEVER good... women voting and other "rights" that were gained by 1900 feminists is NOT good. Where does the Church say ANY feminism is OK, except the "feminism" that says: be subbordinate to my husband, listen to him, not work in the workplace, etc.

[SirMyztiq]

Feo...

I don't need to refute your arguments simply because you are trying to compare what I believe to be two different things. That is it. I'm not going to say that you can't draw any connection but it's just absurd to compare the two. Especially when we know of the nazi's dark history.

This isn't about just killing embryos. This is about advancement for better health being done in a proper and scientific way that is widely accepted by the medical world.

Realm of Science: Science that is useful for the future. It's done in the proper acceptable manner and there is no "darkness" to it's cause or the reason why they are testing.

I don't think that the unborn are inferior. But these are EMBRYOS. That are FROZEN. And no it's not the "their going to die" anyways rhetoric. These embryos are there for testing and the test aren't arbitrary like the Nazi test. They are tested with at least a possible good outcome of it. I have a hard time believing that the Nazis took care and made sure that all of their experirements were at least hopeful of a discovery. SCR has a goal in mind and the Nazis didn't. Some if not most of their expirements were more along the lines of torture.

A high school senior with a few APS?

I don't want to make anybody fell inferior. But compared to many other seniors in my grade. That's beyond impressive.

XIX

I have no problem with siding with the Democrats. Simply because they believe what I do. It's not a "because they said so I must obey" deal with me unlike Catholics. If the Republicans were to switch it around and actually thought about the future then I would have no problem siding with them.

And the sad truth is that most embryos DO die. But you CAN'T draw a logical conclusion and compare it to the Nazi mindset. The Jews were going to die because they were being murdered. The embryos will eventually either die while being frozen. Nobody is killing them for an unjust cause. The procedures are done with proper ethical manner.

But I don't want to argue ethics with people whos ethics are so narrow.

Most discoveries and advances do take a long time to develop. It's sad but true.

XIX

I never said you cited the Bible. Do some "critical thinking" and look at what I said. My statement wasn't about just SCR it applies to the entire perceptive of the Religious base.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 15 2004, 10:12 PM'] Irony:
A Catholic telling me that I'm being told what to think.

[/quote]
This just goes to show your ignorance of the Catholic Church. We are not told what to think. I have never been told what to think. I've been shown what the Catholic Church teaches, and I've done the research. I have been trying to find where the Catholic Church is wrong for about four or five years now... I haven't found any error in their teachings yet.

You've listened to one side of the arguements against the Catholic Church and never listened to what we have to say about it... that's a little foolish to pass judgement off of rumors. If you came asking questions, you would have been given answers... but you came attacking... thinking you already know all you need to know about us when in reality, you know nothing about the Catholic Church.



[quote]Iron:

Do you think I honestly care? You can throw as many titles as me as you possible can but the truth is that you are partisan when it comes to your opinion and that even if you do have a "higher" education you're believes only make you shape and morph your perspective to fit your position...or the church's position at least.[/quote]


Wrong again. I'm not partisan... me thinks u tryin to push my buttons... Again, this just goes to show that you are ignorant of the matter. You've posted on the thread that I posted on about why I am a republican... and you're new here... so your ignorance hasn't worn through my patience yet.



[quote]And to have you know I'm a senior in high schoo. Not too big. But I do have a background on Physics(I passed the AP with a 4) I have a background in Biology(Passed AP with a 3) and environmental science(passed with a 4) I also passed, english, computer science and calculus. I'm more than likely a sophmore in college if all my credits are accepted.[/quote]

LOL... ok guy... grades are easy to get... applying logic and critical thinking is the key... your education is worth nothing if you don't know how to use it. I loved Physics... Biochem... Philosophy... All the math classes.. and Psychology/Sociology. I'm still in college, I've changed my major a few times... I have a 147 IQ... and I love to learn new things. I work as a web developer/programmer. When most people are watching TV, I'm learning something new. Knowledge is power. I'm not saying all of this to make you feel inferior... I'm saying all of this to prove a point I'm not some wack job religious nut bag that the media likes to portray us as.


[quote]But I don't throw them around to make others feel inferior to me. Honestly if that is all you have going for you then it's sad.

I refuse to read the pages you provided because those are Catholic and religiously affiliated pages. I read Time, newsweek and we talk about Stem Cell alot in Biology and Health class. That is it. Now whether my opinion was molded under the influence of those teachers who are pro-SCR then so be it. [/quote]

If you refuse to hear our side... explain how you are not a fool for trying to argue against us.

Only a fool ignores his opponant. If you feel inferior, it's because your arguements are weak. You come in here insulting us, all high and mighty, then you try to tell us that we (I) make you feel inferior... you bring that on yourself when you think you know us when you haven't even studied what we believe and why. There is a lot of science in our teachings. Science has been proving the Catholic Church right for hundreds of years.

You came here. You are welcome here. If you are going to argue, please, for the sake of knowing your enemy if anything, read the pages. Are you scared you'll be brainwashed? Are you scared of learning something? If you were smart, you would listen to all sides before passing judgement.



[quote]The whole excuse over the Nazis is UNRELATED. It's very arbitrary to bring in the Nazi's to an issue ... the same as the Azerian(sp)[/quote]


Nothing good has come from embryonic stem cells... in fact people have died. Science can get all the stem cells they need from adults and umbilical cords. All cures that have come from stem cells have came from adult and umbilical cord stem cells.

The methods used in abortion were perfected by the Nazis.




[quote]Thats almost like if connected the Crusades to the war in Iraq or Afghanistan which to many believe it's almost a religious war. Are we trying to impose or views on them? To them we are Are christians taking advantage of this and going overthere and ridiculing away their belives and stating that Christianity is the only way? Yes. Are we hiding this under false pretences that it's what God wants us to do? Yes.[/quote]

Wrong again. It sounds like you don't know anyone in the military... the military over there is respecting their beliefs and laws. No one is forcing Christianity on them. Someone is lying to you.


[quote]
I'm not scared of the truth. The truth is that some people are too blinded by their *blind* faith and fail to recognize that not everything and not everyone looks at issues and connects them with a book.[/quote]

If you weren't scared of the truth, then you would read the pages at the links I provided. We do not have blind faith. Again, you don't know the Catholic Church very well. We don't believe that any book has all the answers.

If you took the time to know your enemy (us), then you might actually be able to have an intelligent dialog with us about what you believe and what we believe...

If you think we are wrong... show us how we are wrong. I know if you can show me where I'm wrong, I will change. I want to be right. You'll first have to understand where I'm coming from before you can even have any chance at winning an arguement.




God Bless,
ironmonk

[Azriel]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 15 2004, 09:40 PM'] Feminism is NEVER good... women voting and other "rights" that were gained by 1900 feminists is NOT good. Where does the Church say ANY feminism is OK, except the "feminism" that says: be subbordinate to my husband, listen to him, not work in the workplace, etc. [/quote]
ohkay ... this should liven it up in here.

[Mateo el Feo]

I guess it's my fault for trying to reason with a high-school senior who already knows everything...

Dear SirMyztiq, it's clear that providing facts and reason isn't working with you today. I really do hope you will find the opportunity to research this stuff in the future. As you study these subjects, you'll be able to clear up these misconceptions you have on your own time.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 15 2004, 11:40 PM'] Feminism is NEVER good... women voting and other "rights" that were gained by 1900 feminists is NOT good. Where does the Church say ANY feminism is OK, except the "feminism" that says: be subbordinate to my husband, listen to him, not work in the workplace, etc. [/quote]
Bro...

We are to be subordinate to each other. Voting for offices is not being insubordinate. Yes, wives are to be subordinate, but we are to treat our wives as Christ did the Church... which means we must serve them... They are subordinate out of love and we serve them out of love.


[b]Eph 5:21 [/b]
Be subordinate to [u]one another [/u]out of reverence for Christ.
[b]22 [/b]Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
[b]23 [/b]For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
[b]24 [/b]As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
[b]25 [/b][u]Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her [/u]
[b]26 [/b]to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
[b]27 [/b]that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
[b]28 [/b]So (also) [u]husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.[/u]



[b]CCC 2334 [/b]
"In creating men ‘male and female,' God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity."119 "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."120




God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited November 16, 2004 by ironmonk

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 16 2004, 12:02 AM'] Bro...

We are to be subordinate to each other. Voting for offices is not being insubordinate. Yes, wives are to be subordinate, but we are to treat our wives as Christ did the Church... which means we must serve them... They are subordinate out of love and we serve them out of love.


[b]Eph 5:21 [/b]
Be subordinate to [u]one another [/u]out of reverence for Christ.
[b]22 [/b]Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
[b]23 [/b]For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
[b]24 [/b]As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
[b]25 [/b][u]Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her [/u]
[b]26 [/b]to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
[b]27 [/b]that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
[b]28 [/b]So (also) [u]husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.[/u]



[b]CCC 2334 [/b]
"In creating men ‘male and female,' God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity."119 "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."120




God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
St. Paul says: be subject to one another. He then explains what that means... if I were you, I would read Hadock's Bible commentary (Douay-Rheims Version). He can explain that very well, if you think what St. Paul said is not clear enough. The Church is clear: the woman is subject to the husband. The husband is not subordinate to the woman. Just as in any hierarchy or army, etc. you cannot have a higher authority subject to a lower one (or there is really no authority at all), neither is this true in the family. Just as the husband is subject to the wife, so also the children are subject to the parents. There is no mutual subjection in these cases.

"The man is the ruler of the family, and the head of the woman; but because she is flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone, let her be subject and obedient to the man, not as a servant but as a companion, so that nothing be lacking of honor or of dignity in the obedience which she pays. Let divine charity be the constant guide of their mutual relations, both in him who rules and in her who obeys, since each bears the image, the one of Christ, the other of the Church."

Pope Leo XIII, [i]Arcanum divinae sapientiae[/i]

The Pope says very clearly that just as the Church is fully subject to Christ, so also the wife is fully subject to her husband.

Also see Pope Pius XI, [i]Casti Connubii[/i]

Voting is NOT a right to anyone... especially women.

[SirMyztiq]

Iron like i've said. I could care less about your IQ and your education and how educated you think you are.

Feo same thing with you.

I look at the fact. I judge the facts and I stand by the facts.

I'm not influenced in any way for or fashion by my religion. By others that I look up to. Or by ignoring science in general.

Nothing can be as simple as you claim it to be. I'm not trying to push buttons because essentially what I said is true. Unless you are telling me that you would be willing to look at facts and judge AGAINST what the church has already established a position on. I might think I know the facts but I would be lying to you if I knew all the facts. But one fact remains strong: Abortion, SCR and anything scientific in general that attempts to contradict your basis of belief is distorted, fought against and characterized as evil because your religion shapes it to be that way.


I don't have misconceptions. If you want me to research, look all of this up what do you want me to do in order to be as educated as you are? Have the same position you have on the topic?

You say you've looked into the church and haven't found anything wrong with it's teaches. Well I have and their obvious. They preach against freedom. They encourages prejudice. They attempt to influence world matters. And alot of them preach but don't follow. The church has always been a system of control and never allows anything outside of its teachings and is critical of those that don't follow.

Am I generalizing too much?

Answer this:
What happens to those that choose not to be Catholic?
What is the first thing that you think of when somebody tells you their pro-abortion?
What if somebody isn't a virgin?
What if the US decided to allow abortion without the restraints?


All of those answers will be shaped by your churches position. Overtime their position has become your position. If it hasn't then once again you're against the church and I've noticed how critical you are of those who are Catholic and are pro-abortion. Those who are Catholic but don't follow it's guidelines. And the protestant reformation.

Iron you're trying to come off as way too cultured. It's pretty obvious. Believing in a God that revealed himself to one man and one man only is pretty blind.

You really haven't proved anything to me. All I get is hasty comparisons to the Nazi's and partisan links that mix religion with science. Nothing more.

Back on topic:

You have to be able to separate abortion with SCR and that is the key to understanding what people like Reeves and Fox have fought about. This isn't, again, a one sided issue with nothing but negative effects.

[url="http://archives.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/07/17/cohen.otsc/"]http://archives.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/07/17/cohen.otsc/[/url]

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3997179.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3997179.stm[/url]
"Stem cells are master cells that have the ability to develop into any of the body's tissue types. "

"We mustn't be frightened of change or nostalgic about the past - we must be optimistic about the future."

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3977721.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3977721.stm[/url]

A University of Minnesota team transformed stem cells taken from discarded IVF embryos into immature blood cells



What is the future of cell therapy?

Despite the many challenges before us, most scientists believe that cell therapy will revolutionize medicine. With the use of cell therapies, we may soon have dramatic cures for cancer, Parkinson's, diabetes, kidney disease, multiple sclerosis, macular degeneration and a host of other diseases. Cell therapies have also shown great promise in helping to repair catastrophic spinal injuries, and helping victims of paralysis regain movement. It is even possible that the human life span could be greatly extended due to the replenishment of tissues in aging organs. We may even have the ability one day to grow our own organs for transplantation from our own stem cells, eliminating the danger of organ rejection. While we will undoubtedly encounter the limits of cell therapy one day, there is every reason to hope that this revolutionary new approach will result in radically improved ways to treat disease.

[url="http://www.stemcellresearchfoundation.org/About/FAQ.htm"]http://www.stemcellresearchfoundation.org/About/FAQ.htm[/url]


This isn't about what Nazis did along time ago. This is today and the future. Stem cell research is revolutionazing the way we approach world health and illnesses and in the long run it will pay off.

Edited November 16, 2004 by SirMyztiq

[White Knight]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 14 2004, 02:14 AM'] The democratic party is evil because of the national agenda it has.

They aggressivly push:[list]
[*]Abortion
[*]Embrionic Stem Cell Research
[*]Free sex and the use of contraception
[*]same sex marriage
[*]Dependancy on welfare
[/list]

[/quote]
Ironmonk, Youve left out some of the most important things on the list dude lol.


Like "Banning Religious Beliefs in Public Places" "Cloning" "Ethunasia" "Removing and Tambering with U.S. History" [b](Basicially prevents people from learning about Four Fathers true adgenda for the nation)[/b] I know theres alot more, but I just wanted to inform you on that. lol.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Nov 16 2004, 02:17 AM'] Ironmonk, Youve left out some of the most important things on the list dude lol.


Like "Banning Religious Beliefs in Public Places" "Cloning" "Ethunasia" "Removing and Tambering with U.S. History" [b](Basicially prevents people from learning about Four Fathers true adgenda for the nation)[/b] I know theres alot more, but I just wanted to inform you on that. lol. [/quote]
Their true agenda was masonic. Almost every "father" of the country was a mason. Washington was a 33rd degree mason. If I were you, I would get the tape set by Gerry Matatics on that. It is great, especially the last of the six: Abortion as Satanic Sacrifice. The other 5 deal with how the US was set up by the founders as masonic, and tape 4 goes into great detail of how the city of Washington, D.C. was designed completely masonically.