The Democratic Party is Evil.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]

All the state is unjust or only parts of it? Is the part that provides government food for the hungry unjust or the welfare part unjust or flood relief? Is the local government wrong for providing police and fire protection?

I do recall something in the NT about obeying rulers... [/quote]

So the Nazis who said I was just following orders where right? Nazi Germany provided food for the hungry and money for the poor, yet there Government as a whole was unjust and one was not obliged to obey it. One is never Obliged to obey those who are Unjust, Peter and Paul certianly did not, Nor did Christ... I seem to recall something in the NT about him getting Crucified for directly Challenging ruling Authority. Thats pretty much what got Paul beheaded and Peter Crucified as well. Furthermore I would challenge you to telll me anywhere in the NT where it says it is morally obligatory to obey unjust rulers.

The Government is an institution, the institution as a whole is either just or unjust parts of that institution may in fact be just( although the welfare system in the US is certianly not just) but that would not make the institution as a whole Just. Like a man an institution is a unified thing and must be taken accordingly as a whole, a tyrrant may have Just qualities( Hitler certianly did) that does not make him Just nor does it make him an Authority. Simularly, a Government may have Just Qualities that doen't mean that it is Just as something that is Unjust can have no Authority it therefore is never Morally Obligatory to obey it.

Edited November 17, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[IcePrincessKRS]

How did this go from Ironmonk demonstrating phrases and the use of critical thinking to "women (or anyone else) have no right to vote"? :haha:

Talk about going off track...

Edited November 17, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[ironmonk]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 17 2004, 03:23 PM'] One reason, at least within the political system here, is that a vote, when the country was founded, represented the household of a property owner. There was no concept (and with good reason) that every single citizen had a "RIGHT" to vote. Despite popular opinion, this country was not founded as a democracy. [/quote]
This is true.

What a lot of people here fail to realize is that the founding fathers knew that a democracy always ends up to the least common denominator.

This country is a Republic.

The reason why only property owners (this doesn't just mean land, it also means stocks/bonds, etc...) could vote was because they had something at stake. When you have some vested interest in the country, you will take the time to study who you are voting for. Also, the problem with nonproperty owners voting is that they will vote their way into the national treasury... and that is what is happening with a particular party.

I think people who don't know who they're voting for should not be allowed to vote. Property owners only is a great way to ensure this. It's not the best, but it would be better than what we have now when massive groups of people are voting for someone just because their told to... such as certain unions.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Azriel]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Nov 17 2004, 02:40 PM'] How did this go from Ironmonk demonstrating phrases and the use of critical thinking to "women (or anyone else) have no right to vote"? :haha:

Talk about going off track... [/quote]
such is the way of the hijacked thread...

my bad Iron...

[SirMyztiq]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:39 PM'] Mystiq,

Stem cells are not human beings. Embryonic stem cells are extracted from embryos that are destroyed (aka killed).

The embryos are human beings.



Destroying a human being is a pretty violent act in my book, no matter what the size. The embryonic killers/scientists have more interest in embryos than just cell-harvesting--their experiments can get even wilder than the Nazi experiments. For example, these men are doing some extremely sick stuff with cloning research, where human DNA is spliced with animal or plant DNA, a hybrid being is created, and then killed. If such bizarre acts are immoral (i.e. creating/destroying embryos for these DNA experiments), then embryonic stem cell research is no more or less immoral. This is because the immoral act is the destruction of the human being, regardless of the methods or goals of the scientist.

If, in your world, destroying a human embryo is ethical for embryonic stem-cell research; then I find it doubtful that you'd be able to put up an ethical argument against the most perverse human cloning experiments.

Maybe you've been taught to believe that dunking a man in a cold tub of water is immoral. Maybe you believe that it is moral to perform scientific experiments like splicing fruitfly DNA into a human embryo and watching the result grow, because the results may help people one day in the future.

And please don't try to argue a difference between embryos killed by cloning vs. embryos killed by cell-harvesting.

Iron Monk gave you some good advice: weighing the facts cannot happen if you continue to close your mind to the input of anyone who disagrees with you. I hope you take his advice.

Also, if you want everybody to treat you with more respect, you'd do well to treat others with respect. Personally, I'm not waiting for you to turn off your condescending attitude. I'll treat you with the respect that I think you deserve. But, it would be helpful if you would lose the "I know everything" attitude, not to mention the "religious people are beneath me" attitude.

Mateo [/quote]
In my world it isn't immoral neither is it against the code of ethics. It would be impossibe to argue about it not because I "can't" but because you have a different view of what ethics are.

And that is probably where the argument against SCR begins and ends.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Nov 17 2004, 02:03 PM'] I have not really been following this thread, but I subscribe to the statement "No one has the right to vote, and women especially do not have the right to vote" (among other beliefs), so I feel that I am able to answer in some regard concerning the reasons that women especially do not have the right to vote. The basic reasoning is two-fold. First, the Tradition of the Church that women are subject to male authority. Second, the explicit teaching of the Bible on the matter. The Tradition of the Church speaks for itself with women never being permitted to have positions of authority over a man, whether secular or ecclesiastical. The man is always the head of the house and a man is the (human) head of the Church. This understanding is derived from the natural law as well as Divine Revelation. One of the sources of this Divine Revelation is the Bible. There are severl pertinent sections concerning women, some dealing with ecclesiastical authority, others with secular authority, and some others with both. The verses are . They are I Corinthians xi (the whole first half, verses 1-16); I Corinthians xiv.33-35; Ephesians v.22,24; Colossians iii.18; I St. Peter iii.1,5; I St. Timothy ii.9-15. I must go now to attend to academic concerns, but I will check back and provide more information (hopefully from the Fathers, Doctors, etc) for the cause that women are subject. If it is necessary, I will explain how voting initiates an act that is of authority, not of subjection (but I would hope that this is sufficiently obvious). [/quote]
I'll think about the secular authority side of this the next time I read the books of Esther and Judith.....

[Lil Red]

if any of you can contribute to my thread at flyfree forums about the whole woman issue, i'd be glad of your input. you can find it here: [url="http://www.flyfreeministries.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=654"]http://www.flyfreeministries.org/forum/ind...p?showtopic=654[/url]

[lifeteenchick527]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 14 2004, 08:57 PM'] "Embrionic Stem Cell Research"
Ohh NO! Now their using embryos for the better health of the future!
[/quote]
ok i know this quote was from a few pages ago...and it might have been taken care of...but i just thought i would add this


u cant say that they are using embryos for the better health of the future...that doesnt make since...first off...ur killing the future by abortion and by using embryonic stem cell research...two...as far as i know the stells of a pre-born baby have not been able to help any thing ...also...wouldnt the adult stem cell research be better bc they r fully mature and people have actually been able to find cures using the adult stem cells

[Socrates]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 17 2004, 11:04 AM'] I think it should be the other way around. What Church teaching says women (or anyone for that matter) has a RIGHT to vote? America is an unjust country in the first place. No one has a right to overthrow a government when he sees fit. That is what the masonic Americanists who founded this coutry did. The Church has taught that one must be obedient to legitimate secular authorities. Those who founded this country did not do that. They had no right to make their own country and wage an UNJUST war. You are basing what you believe on this country's standards, which have been non-Catholic (even anti-Catholic) from the very beginning. If women have some sort of "right" to vote, then I guess all the Catholics et al. who were not giving them that "right" before 1919 were committing some sort of sin.

The idea that a person has a right to vote is based around the anti-Catholic democratic principles. A democracy is not a Catholic government because by definition it is the rule of the people as they see fit. Once 51% of them believing something, it magically becomes "right". That is not how the Church nor a Catholic State would function, which is why there were no Catholic democracies/Republics in Christendom...





Clearly an anti-intellectual argument. That's like saying: a person who is 14 has never driven a car; therefore, he can't possibly know that driving drunk causes accidents or that teenage drivers often speed and are unsafe ... [/quote]
Just an "innocent" question . . .

Since America's so intrinsically horrible and evil and unjust and what have you, with all its nasty freedoms and whatnot, why don't you just pack up your stuff and move to some other country?

Maybe some country without all those evil freedoms.
An ideal would be a place without that horrendous freedom of speech, where it would be a crime for you to spend all your time criticizing the country!

Maybe if we could find a place with a nice feudal economy too, where you'd have to spend all your days working the fields for your feudal lord, or something productive, rather than spending your days lounging around in an air-conditioned house denouncing everyone else on your computer?

Too bad they broke up the Taliban! Would have been right up your ally!

Edited November 20, 2004 by Socrates

[Don John of Austria]

Socrates-- you need to back off-- I'll tell you my answer when those who ccan't come up with an actual arguement have said such things to me--- THIS IS MY HOME, the fact that those that governn it do so in an immoral way has nothing to do with the fact that I am tied to it, it is MINE as much as anyones, and I have every right to try and effect it's government. More than that I have MORE right than most because my veiws on Government are the correct ones and frankly anyone who materially disagrees with me is wrong( not neccessarly Evil just wrong) that sounds arrogant doesn't it but frankly its not my ideas on government are not original they where conceived of by men of far greater stature than myself, I simply recognize that the Catholic way is the RIGHT way Capitalism has been specifically condemned by the Church so has Seperation of Church and State so have many other things which our Country and Founders subsrcibe(d) to. I could easily say the same to you, " If you like those practices that are condemned by the Church so much why don't you go to a country that is in formal opposition to Her how about Cuba they are a good secularlist government" why don't I say things like that to you because they are the refuge of those who have nothing to say, --- don't attack the man put forward your Ideas and explain why there better than His but this behavior is rude, Childish and frankly beneath the dignaty of one who calls themselves CATHOLIC.

[cmotherofpirl]

Manners people...

and remember we are Catholics [i]before[/i] we are Americans, Brits, Canadians or Aussiesetc


Democracy and capitalism aren't the greatest systems [there is no such thing], but they are better than many of the alternatives. If you believe that God plants us where we wants us, then this is where you belong [shut up and bloom ]

Work to improve the sysytem you are in, instead of complaining about a fantasy one.

[Paladin D]

Why is it that almost every single person claims this country to be a democracy? It's a Republic! A full-out democracy is when the people have total control when it comes to laws being passed, and the people vote on issues. We vote for representives to pass these laws and deal with the issues.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Democracy and capitalism aren't the greatest systems [there is no such thing],[/quote]


Well of course there is there is no perfect system but some system somewhere is better than all the others and Captialism isn't bettter than anything Capitalism has be specificly condemned by the Church as evil.

[quote]to improve the sysytem you are in, instead of complaining about a fantasy one.[/quote]
Communism was a fantasy until someone, rose up anddestroyed the system they where in to impose it, the same is true of Republican Democracy. The Founders forged our country thinking of Rome how much farther back was that than what is proposed here.

[M.SIGGA]

I recently came to this realization, but I don't understand why any Christian would want any organization associated with their name or identity that would have the audacity to scream and preach this way (Ron Reagan's celebrated announcement "don't force your ideology on me!") on global television at a national political convention.

In terms of eternity it's not worth it to associate oneself with an organization like this in the short span of time we have on earth, even if you are prolife.

Just because Adolf Hitler might have been pro-traditional family never gave someone an excuse to be a Nazi, and the Dems political convention and party platform promoted the death of innocents and the culture of death.

[color=blue]"The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:16-17)

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10)

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:26)[/color]

You don't have to run out and become a gung-ho Republican necessarily, but I would think authentic Christians, especially Catholics, would avoid the Democrats aura of darkness at all costs. In terms of judgement it's not worth it. All our efforts need to be put forth to avoid darkness and scandal and spread Christ's Kingdom.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Nov 20 2004, 03:09 PM'] I recently came to this realization, but I don't understand why any Christian would want any organization associated with their name or identity that would have the audacity to scream and preach this way (Ron Reagan's celebrated announcement "don't force your ideology on me!") on global television at a national political convention.

In terms of eternity it's not worth it to associate oneself with an organization like this in the short span of time we have on earth, even if you are prolife.

Just because Adolf Hitler might have been pro-traditional family never gave someone an excuse to be a Nazi, and the Dems political convention and party platform promoted the death of innocents and the culture of death.

[color=blue]"The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:16-17)

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10)

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:26)[/color]

You don't have to run out and become a gung-ho Republican necessarily, but I would think authentic Christians, especially Catholics, would avoid the Democrats aura of darkness at all costs. In terms of judgement it's not worth it. All our efforts need to be put forth to avoid darkness and scandal and spread Christ's Kingdom. [/quote]
Very well put.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Socrates]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Nov 20 2004, 01:51 AM'] Socrates-- you need to back off-- I'll tell you my answer when those who ccan't come up with an actual arguement have said such things to me--- THIS IS MY HOME, the fact that those that governn it do so in an immoral way has nothing to do with the fact that I am tied to it, it is MINE as much as anyones, and I have every right to try and effect it's government. More than that I have MORE right than most because my veiws on Government are the correct ones and frankly anyone who materially disagrees with me is wrong( not neccessarly Evil just wrong) that sounds arrogant doesn't it but frankly its not my ideas on government are not original they where conceived of by men of far greater stature than myself, I simply recognize that the Catholic way is the RIGHT way Capitalism has been specifically condemned by the Church so has Seperation of Church and State so have many other things which our Country and Founders subsrcibe(d) to. I could easily say the same to you, " If you like those practices that are condemned by the Church so much why don't you go to a country that is in formal opposition to Her how about Cuba they are a good secularlist government" why don't I say things like that to you because they are the refuge of those who have nothing to say, --- don't attack the man put forward your Ideas and explain why there better than His but this behavior is rude, Childish and frankly beneath the dignaty of one who calls themselves CATHOLIC. [/quote]
MIght want to note: the post in question was addressed to Catholic Crusader, not Don John (as I quoted CC's post).
Might try reading the beginning of the posts before you jump all over them.

Same principles apply. Many brave men made great sacrifices for the freedoms which you and I enjoy. The least we can do is show some gratitude and humility, rather than using our freedoms and privileges to whine about how horrible their country is. Quite frankly this attitude makes me sick.

It is especially ironic coming from those whose whole way of life seems to be based on using the freedoms (as of speech) and comforts that were earned for them by others.
I never complained in this way. I love my country, though I know it is not perfect, and has taken some wrong turns in modern times. I am grateful for the privileges I have here, and do not take them for granted. I never said this country was too religious.
Try mouthing off this hatred of America to a vet (popepiusx is one), and see what they think. I didn't make it through OCS at Qunatico, though my experience there has given me some appreciation of what those men go through who dedicate their lives to defending thier country - (and even preserving the freedoms of those who hate their country).

[Don John of Austria]

I know who you where adressing, you where still out of line

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]Many brave men made great sacrifices for the freedoms which you and I enjoy.  The least we can do is show some gratitude and humility, rather than using our freedoms and privileges to whine about how horrible their country is.  Quite frankly this attitude makes me sick. [/quote]

Are we lucky because we now have the freedom to blaspheme God, be heretical, denounce the Church, say whatever we want, whereas before we had the freedom and right and DUTY to follow the Church and speak out openly WITHIN THE SPECTRUM OF CHURCH TEACHING, under the Catholic Governments of Christendom? Is that what you are saying?

[JP2Iloveyou]

I'm going to post this AGAIN. Please read Freedom of Conscience and of Religion. Here are a couple quotes.

[quote]During these last decades the Catholic Church has reflected deeply on the theme of human rights, especially on freedom of conscience and of religion...The Church would like to submit a few special considerations on this theme to the distinguished authorities of the Helsinki Final Act's signatory countries, with a view to encouraging a serious examination of the present situation of this liberty [b]so as to ensure that it is effectively guaranteed everywhere.[/b][/quote]

[quote]On the basis of his personal convictions, man is led to recognize and follow a religious or metaphysical concept involving his whole life with regard to fundamental choices and attitudes. This inner reflection, even if it does not result in an explicit and positive assertion of faith in God, cannot but be respected in the name of the dignity of each one's conscience, whose hidden searching may not be judged by others. Thus, on the one hand, each individual has the right and duty to seek the truth, and, on the other hand, other persons as well as civil society have the corresponding duty to respect the free spiritual development of each person.[/quote]

Now, I read a while back that The United States of America should not even be a country because she waged an unjust war with Great Britain in declaring independence. Could I have some reasoning for this?

Secondly, as regards women. Whoever posted a while back that women are the subjects of men and shouldn't be allowed to vote, etc., etc. needs to reread Ephesians 5 because you are totally taking the verse, "Wives be submissive to your husbands" out of context. Women, as well as men certainly do have the right to vote. As proof, I give you [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] 31 section 3, "One must pay tribute to those nations whose systems permit the largest possible number of the citizens to take part in public life in a climate of genuine freedom." The Catechism uses this quote in paragraph 1915:

[quote]As far as possible citizens should take an active part in public life. The manner of this participation may vary from one country or culture to another. "One must pay tribute to those nations whose systems permit the largest possible number of the citizens to take part in public life in a climate of genuine freedom."[/quote]

CCC 2240 says:
[quote]Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, [b]to exercise the right to vote[/b], and to defend one's country.[/quote]

God Bless,
JP2Iloveyou