The Catholic Church:The Church that Christ founded

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Nov 22 2004, 01:45 PM'] JMJ
11/22 - St. Cecilia



No. [/quote]
Why not?

[ICTHUS]

I voted "Yes", with one caveat.

I voted yes, with one caveat. The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is the one whom Christ founded, and she is our mother and our teacher. However, I do not believe that the Pope of Rome is the head thereof, nor do we Reformed Christians define the catholicity of a particular body of Christians by the standards put forth by the Romish church.


[quote name='The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646)']

Chapter XXV
[b]Of the Church[/b]

I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.[1]

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]

III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.[7]

IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9]

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12]

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14] [/quote]

[ICTHUS]

[quote]i apologize for that "excuse me while i laugh".[/quote] Apology accepted. See above where I edited my post and thus withdraw my previous comment about your arrogant Papist soul. With that said...
[quote]i just find the argument about what the Catholic Church is for this poll is ludacris because you know common definition says "Catholic Church" = "Roman Catholic Church".  You're arguing semantics as if it's a valid argument.[/quote] The common definition is incorrect. That is where my argument from semantics comes from. The Church of Rome (arrogantly) abrogates to herself the title of 'Catholic Church', saying that the fulness of the catholicity of Christ's bride inheres within her. The Reformed (obviously) disagree, and I demonstrated the basis for my belief from citing one of our Confessions of Faith.

Also, the common spelling is "ludicrous" not "ludacris"

Edited November 24, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Archangel]

When protestants see the term "the catholic church", why do they interpret it as "the protestant churches"?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 23 2004, 10:27 PM'] I voted "Yes", with one caveat.

I voted yes, with one caveat. The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is the one whom Christ founded, and she is our mother and our teacher. However, I do not believe that the Pope of Rome is the head thereof, nor do we Reformed Christians define the catholicity of a particular body of Christians by the standards put forth by the Romish church.


[/quote]
Jesus only founded ONE Church - One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. He left one guy in charge.
This is history, and backed by Scripture. Facts don't change just because you disagree.

Up until the Deformation, there were no other Christians, so "reformed" anything is not part of the Church founded by Christ. You can't trace your history back to Jesus, only back to an error committed by a man.

The title "romish" is inaccurate unless you are simply pointing out the City where Peter happened to reside.

WE have been the CATHOLIC Church since it was so titled by St Ignatius of Antioich in 96 AD. Catholic simply means universal, and since we are the only Curch actually founded by God, it is an accurate description.

Edited November 24, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 18 2004, 01:39 AM'] I disagree...i see the roman catholic church to be much like the pharisee's in Jesus time. Also some what diluded with praying to dead people in Mary as well as the saints. No point praying for a person once there gone as their test is over. Mary would have died in sin if weren't for Jesus as people where confused to the old covenant, even the priests which is evident in how they dealt with Christ but that was prophesy...so is Christ warning people about those liers who come in His name.

Mary was blessed no doubt, but the trinity does not include her... The Roman Catholic church didn't even want the bible to be public some hundreds of years ago, this church is Constantine's idea of Christianity and puts too much emphasis on images..idols.."hail mary full of grace"..whats grace to u? [/quote]
Obviously you don't know anything about Christian history or the Bible itself. First, it is a historical fact that the Roman Catholic Church was established by Christ. Second, the Church never hid Scripture from anyone. The Gutenburg press wasn't around then. Monks spent their whole lives copying down a few Bibles. By the way, your comment on "Hail Mary Full of Grace" was absolutely ridiculous. Check out Luke 1:28. Apparently you don't read you Bible. Lastly, why would the Catholic Church compile the Bible to hide it from the public. You and your false claims make no sense. May God Bless!

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
11/25 - Thanksgiving Day

[quote]Why not?[/quote]

Because I'm a Bible-believing Christian, I'm going to let my yes be yes and my no be no.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Nov 24 2004, 03:01 AM'] When protestants see the term "the catholic church", why do they interpret it as "the protestant churches"? [/quote]
We don't. See the Westminster Confession of Faith quote I provided above - it nowhere mentions the word "Protestant"

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 24 2004, 07:59 AM']



[/quote]
[quote]Jesus only founded ONE Church - One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. He left one guy in charge.[/quote] Yes - Himself.

[quote]Up until the Deformation, there were no other Christians, so "reformed" anything is not part of the Church founded by Christ. You can't trace your history back to Jesus, only back to an error committed by a man.[/quote] So you say. However, we can trace our doctrines back to Jesus the Apostles, for we teach nothing that cannot be explicitly proved by Holy Writ. I could just as easily say that the Romish church is a Deformation because of its refusal to submit to Christ and the doctrines that the Holy Spirit revealed in the Holy Scriptures. Now that the insults are over and done with, can we get to the substantiative issues?

[quote]The title "romish" is inaccurate unless you are simply pointing out the City where Peter happened to reside.[/quote] Your 'church' is based in Rome, is it not? What would you have me call you, the catholic Church? No, for that would be allowing that the catholic Church subsists within you, something that I will never admit because your corrupt 'church' is not a church at all, but a synagogue of Satan and a house of lies.

[quote] WE have been the CATHOLIC Church since it was so titled by St Ignatius of Antioich in 96 AD. Catholic simply means universal, and since we are the only Curch actually founded by God, it is an accurate description.[/quote] Begs-the-question. This is just a statement of your position, and not an argument for it. A rather uninteresting statement, at that.

[Guest]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:33 PM'] something that I will never admit because your corrupt 'church' is not a church at all, but a synagogue of Satan and a house of lies.

[/quote]
much love to you icthus
but be carefull how deep you go in the sea to swim
remember Jesus said blasphemy against the holy spirit is unforgivable
and that is to attribute to the devil what is of the holy spirit
much love to you

Edited November 26, 2004 by Guest

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='conservativecatholic' date='Nov 24 2004, 04:00 PM'] Apparently you don't read you Bible. Lastly, why would the Catholic Church compile the Bible to hide it from the public. You and your false claims make no sense. May God Bless! [/quote]
[quote]Obviously you don't know anything about Christian history or the Bible itself. First, it is a historical fact that the Roman Catholic Church was established by Christ.[/quote] Impossible. Christ was never in Rome. How could a Church based in Rome be established by Him?

[quote] Second, the Church never hid Scripture from anyone. The Gutenburg press wasn't around then. Monks spent their whole lives copying down a few Bibles.[/quote] Catalyst, he has part of a point here. The Bible wasn't readily available, due to the exorbitant costs involved in copying the manuscripts out by hand - in any case, the Church of Rome was an excellent harbringer of the Gospel up until a few centuries before the Reformation. The Church of Rome only became really guilty of witholding the Scriptures from the faithful after the Gutenberg printing press was invented - in fact, they even put the Bible on their "Index of Forbidden Books" for awhile.
[quote name='Catalyst']Mary would have died in sin if weren't for Jesus as people where confused to the old covenant, even the priests which is evident in how they dealt with Christ but that was prophesy...so is Christ warning people about those liers who come in His name.[/quote] Catalyst, are you saying that the Old Covenant had no purpose and that everyone before Jesus went to Hell? If so, I suggest reading through Hebrews and Romans - it makes it explicit that everyone who was under the Law in the Old Covenant is saved by faith through Jesus' blood of the New Covenant.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Nov 25 2004, 06:04 AM'] JMJ
11/25 - Thanksgiving Day



Because I'm a Bible-believing Christian, I'm going to let my yes be yes and my no be no. [/quote]
Don't be stupid. That passage, in context, is referring to honesty and how you shouldn't swear by anything, but simply let your 'yes' mean youre going to do something, and your 'no' mean you won't. It says nothing about allowing a person an 'easy out' for making stupid decisions without a good reason.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:39 PM'] much love to you icthus
but be carefull how deep you go in the sea to swim
remember Jesus said blasphemy against the holy spirit is unforgivable
and that is to attribute to the devil what is of the holy spirit
much love to you [/quote]
The Roman Catholic Church =/= The Holy Spirit

I am speaking against the blasphemies and idolatries of the 'Church' of Rome, which cannot be of the Spirit because they blatantly contradict what He revealed in the written Word of God. I love and adore the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Blessed Trinity.

Edited November 26, 2004 by ICTHUS

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 26 2004, 06:40 PM'] The Church of Rome only became really guilty of witholding the Scriptures from the faithful after the Gutenberg printing press was invented - in fact, they even put the Bible on their "Index of Forbidden Books" for awhile.
[/quote]
No, but they did put faulty translations, transliterations and incomplete versions that attempted to pass themselves off as Bibles on the Index of Forbidden Books, and with good reason.

[Guest Aluigi]

He established it around Peter, Peter went to Rome where the Church had already spread to, took charge of it, taught St. Linus and prepared him to take charge, and died.

They put incomplete erroneous translations of the Bible on the list of forbidden books, but the Church always read the Bible to her people so that those with ears could hear. the Bible was not written with the intention of giving everyone a book, it was written with the intention of <OT> having it read in synagogue <NT> having it read in the churches (that the letters were sent to) and then <OT and NT> were cannonized in order to clarify which books should be read in every church.

[Guest Aluigi]

true about yeses and nos, i think Pio Nono was just tryin to be cute, don't hate on him it's in a lighthearted manner

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
11/28 - First Sunday of Advent

[quote]Don't be stupid. That passage, in context, is referring to honesty and how you shouldn't swear by anything, but simply let your 'yes' mean youre going to do something, and your 'no' mean you won't. It says nothing about allowing a person an 'easy out' for making stupid decisions without a good reason. [/quote]

You take life way to seriously. Of course it was meant as a joke - personal attacks on me ("Don't be stupid" and "stupid decisions") are uncalled-for, as I don't remember making personal attacks on you.

And the nice thing about being outside of this debate (I haven't posted on the debate itself, I just refused you a request) is that I don't have to give an accounting of my decisions. I said no and I meant it. Start your own poll (which it seems that you have done).