Mass Confusion #7 (I think)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='i7nvd' date='Nov 24 2004, 07:57 AM'] I think I agree with phatcatholic, though I'm not as well versed in this stuff as most of you guys, but I don't think that in holding hands during the Our Father that the priest IS adding anything. [i]Allowing[/i] something is FAR different than [i]adding[/i] something. If the priest said that everyone HAD to hold hands, THAT would be adding something. When I pray the Our Father, I love holding hands, because to me, it shows unity in our prayer. We all want the same thing. So we join our voices and our bodies to lift up this one prayer. I can't see why this would be prohibited OR discouraged. [/quote]
There is no substantial difference between "allowing" something to be done during the Divine Liturgy, and "adding" something to the ritual of the Mass. The Divine Liturgy is not a private prayer of the priest or of the lay faithful; instead, it is the public prayer of the Church, therefore no one, not even a priest, should, on personal initiative, add any gesture or action to the rite, or delete a custom that is properly approved, without the official [i]recognitio[/i] of the Supreme Authority of the Church.

God bless,
Todd

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 24 2004, 12:14 PM']
What if I decide to dance during the offeratory hymn? [/quote]
I would be very frightened.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 24 2004, 01:50 PM'] I would be very frightened. [/quote]

[amarkich]

Prohibited, annoying, enough said. It is definitely not done at my parish, and it was not even done at my NO in Connecticut. It's just a protestant innovation. It is not even done in the North, even at NO (at least in most cases, apparently it happens in some places). My dad was on a trip and went to Mass in VA. He said they didn't even do it here, and that is the South.

[Guest JeffCR07]

so whats the answer to this one?

My record is at stake, and I have a funny feeling that after everything Todd posted, that record is going down in flames, cuz I posted "discouraged."

Edited November 25, 2004 by JeffCR07

[cmotherofpirl]

It is discouraged for the reasons Todd and I stated.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 24 2004, 11:20 PM'] It is discouraged for the reasons Todd and I stated. [/quote]
yes, [i]discouraged[/i]..............but not [i]prohibited [/i]

[CatholicCrusader]

Saying that it is only discouraged is as illogical as saying that the Priest doing cartwheels up to the Altar in Procession is discouraged, since it's not explicitly condemned in the GIRM. That is completely ridiculous. It is literally impossible to write everything that is prohibited in the GIRM, as there is an infinite number of things that could be done throughout the Mass that would be prohibited. For that reason, anything that is NOT in the GIRM is thereby prohibited. Prior to the Novus Ordo, there were no prescribed positions for the congregation; they followed generally the positions of those in Choir. In the Novus Ordo, though, there ARE outlined postures (at least I have been told so) by the GIRM. Therefore, if it is not clearly expressed in the GIRM as a posture, it cannot be something that is permitted at all. Hence, it is prohibited. It would make more sense that holding hands would be acceptable in the Traditional Mass than in the Novus Ordo, since in the Traditional Mass there are no rubrics for the people... and as PSPX and Adam said, it is certainly not allowed at Traditional parishes...

[cappie]

Holding Hands at the Our Father?


ROME, NOV. 18, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

Q: Many say we should not be holding hands in the congregation while reciting the Lord's Prayer because it is not a community prayer but a prayer to "Our Father." Local priests say that since the Vatican has not specifically addressed it, then we are free to do as we please: either hold hands or not. What is the true Roman Catholic way in which to recite the Lord's Prayer during Mass? -- T.P., Milford, Maine

A: It is true that there is no prescribed posture for the hands during the Our Father and that, so far at least, neither the Holy See nor the U.S. bishops' conference has officially addressed it.

The argument from silence is not very strong, however, because while there is no particular difficulty in a couple, family or a small group spontaneously holding hands during the Our Father, a problem arises when the entire assembly is expected or obliged to do so.

The process for introducing any new rite or gesture into the liturgy in a stable or even binding manner is already contemplated in liturgical law. This process entails a two-thirds majority vote in the bishops' conference and the go-ahead from the Holy See before any change may take effect.

Thus, if neither the bishops' conference nor the Holy See has seen fit to prescribe any posture for the recitation of the Our Father, it hardly behooves any lesser authority to impose a novel gesture not required by liturgical law and expect the faithful to follow their decrees.

While there are no directions as to the posture of the faithful, the rubrics clearly direct the priest and any concelebrants to pray the Our Father with hands extended -- so they at least should not hold hands.

One could argue that holding hands expresses the family union of the Church. But our singing or reciting the prayer in unison already expresses this element.

The act of holding hands usually emphasizes group or personal unity from the human or physical point of view and is thus more typical of the spontaneity of small groups. Hence it does not always transfer well into the context of larger gatherings where some people feel uncomfortable and a bit imposed upon when doing so.

The use of this practice during the Our Father could detract and distract from the prayer's God-directed sense of adoration and petition, as explained in Nos. 2777-2865 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in favor of a more horizontal and merely human meaning.

For all of these reasons, no one should have any qualms about not participating in this gesture if disinclined to do so. They will be simply following the universal customs of the Church, and should not be accused of being a cause of disharmony.

A different case is the practice in which some people adopt the "orantes" posture during the Our Father, praying like the priest, with hands extended.

In some countries, Italy, for example, the Holy See has granted the bishops' request to allow anyone who wishes to adopt this posture during the Our Father. Usually about a third to one-half of the assembled faithful choose to do so.

Despite appearances, this gesture is not, strictly speaking, a case of the laity trying to usurp priestly functions.

The Our Father is the prayer of the entire assembly and not a priestly or presidential prayer. In fact, it is perhaps the only case when the rubrics direct the priest to pray with arms extended in a prayer that he does not say alone or only with other priests. Therefore, in the case of the Our Father, the orantes posture expresses the prayer directed to God by his children.

The U.S. bishops' conference debated a proposal by some bishops to allow the use of the orantes posture while discussing the "American Adaptations to the General Instruction to the Roman Missal" last year. Some bishops even argued that it was the best way of ridding the country of holding hands. The proposal failed to garner the required two-thirds majority of votes, however, and was dropped from the agenda.

[popestpiusx]

And the answer is........

[musturde]

From what I've heard, the American Bishops believe it's okay because it's supposedly hard to change the tradition. I believe that's what they've told the Vatican.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='musturde' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:13 PM'] From what I've heard, the American Bishops believe it's okay because it's supposedly hard to change the tradition. I believe that's what they've told the Vatican. [/quote]
That didn't seem to bother anyone 30 or 40 years ago.

[Mary's Knight, La]

"it hardly behooves any lesser authority to impose a novel gesture not required by liturgical law "

"For all of these reasons, no one should have any qualms about not participating in this gesture if disinclined to do so. They will be simply following the universal customs of the Church, and should not be accused of being a cause of disharmony. "

"The use of this practice during the Our Father could detract and distract from the prayer's God-directed sense of adoration and petition,"

seems a case of "not-encouraged in any form whatsoever to any degree" in short all but prohibited

can you imagine the fuss they would hear when the headlines read: Bishops Crack Down on Catholics Families cannot show unity at church

That's a good reason to not officially discourage it. The media already does what they can to portray bishops in an extremely dim light.

after reading the article cappie posted a while back I stopped because I think it's important that Mass be the way the bishops teach (as servants of the Sacrament they have His interest in mind). After explaining it to my family and my fiance they don't mind, it doesn't stop them though.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='musturde' date='Nov 26 2004, 06:13 PM'] From what I've heard, the American Bishops believe it's okay because it's supposedly hard to change the tradition. I believe that's what they've told the Vatican. [/quote]
The bishops do not support it, they just hope their discouragement with make it eventually go away. They do have a few more important things to deal with.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='musturde' date='Nov 26 2004, 02:13 PM'] From what I've heard, the American Bishops believe it's okay because it's supposedly hard to change the tradition. I believe that's what they've told the Vatican. [/quote]
Holding hands during the "Our Father" is not a legitimate liturgical tradition; instead, it is an abuse, and as such it is not permitted. To reiterate what has already been said, the liturgy is not the private prayer of the parish priest or of any group of the lay faithful within the local or diocesan Church, and therefore no unauthorized changes may be made to it. The Divine Liturgy is the prayer of the whole Church, and as such, only the Supreme Magisterium may make adaptations to the rite.

God bless,
Todd

[popestpiusx]

Who are the six that said preferred, I wonder?

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 25 2004, 01:24 PM'] Saying that it is only discouraged is as illogical as saying that the Priest doing cartwheels up to the Altar in Procession is discouraged, since it's not explicitly condemned in the GIRM. [/quote]
what if the priest rides a Harley up during the processional? While he's dressed as a superhero...or the Grinch?
Anybody in Hampton Roads should know who I'm talking about...

[popestpiusx]

I know exactly who you are referring too.

[popestpiusx]

Though I'm not from Hampton. The guy is famous. He is alo a public heretic and one of the most foul men I have ever heard or read about. I wish he would depart from this life very soon (after having repented of course).

[toledo_jesus]

do you know what is odd though?
This fella is of course a heretic and should have been retired many moons ago.
But I was speaking with a man (who is orthodox) and he told me that if he was dying, the man he would ask for is this priest, because he quite literally will stay with you until the very end, comforting you and just talking. Which made me stop to think that everybody has some redeeming qualities.