Mass Confusion #7 (I think)

[popestpiusx]

But would he give last rites? I would not trust him. He hates the rosary and confession. He said so, explicitly. Not who I want at my deathbed.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I haven't heard any of these stories, but I am getting a very nauseating feeling in my stomach from the way you are talking about him that this man is a priest...

[toledo_jesus]

yeah he sure is a priest. allow me to provide an article...it uses his name, but oh well, he'd probably enjoy the publicity.

[i]"FOOL FOR CHRIST": PRIEST WHOSE BEHAVIOR SOMETIMES SHOCKS BRINGS HIS UNORTHODOX MINISTERIAL WAYS TO BEACH CHURCH


Published: Saturday, June 24, 2000
Section: DAILY BREAK , page E1
Source: BY LIZ SZABO, STAFF WRITER

© 2000 Landmark Communications Inc.

SOMEWHERE IN Rome is a file on the Rev. Thomas J. Quinlan. A fat one. And, quite possibly, one of the Vatican's most amusing.

Catholics have been firing off enraged epistles about Quinlan for most of his four decades as a priest. He eats it up. The 71-year-old Quinlan, a chain smoker with a voice like sandpaper, displays the missives as if they are star report

``Don't you think Jesus ruffled the feathers of everyone he ever met?'' Quinlan asked at his desk, laughing between drags on a cigarette.

There was the time in 1969 when Quinlan carted off his church's statues to the city dump. ``This is not a new
concept of Catholicism,'' an enraged woman wrote to the bishop. ``We are victims of vandalism led by a sick man.''

That same year, Quinlan held a psychedelic Mass with special lighting effects. Four years later, his priestly orders were nearly suspended when he featured an interpretive dancer at Holy Thursday Mass.

In 1974, a Time magazine profile quoted him calling his parish ``spiritual white trash'' who casually drop into Mass to ``fill up at God's gas pump.''

Quinlan shocked more than a few Catholics when he rode down the center aisle of the Basilica of St. Mary of the Immaculate Conception on a police motorcycle, blue lights flashing, for the Palm Sunday procession.

Jaws dropped, too, when he dressed for Mass on one occasion as Superman, on others as the Grinch or the Blue Angel. And when he led the nearly all-black congregation to Suffolk to re-enact the trial of Nat Turner on Good Friday. And when, at a wedding in1989, Quinlan went into detail about the sexual imagery invoked by
the long, narrow candles used for the liturgy.

``It's not funny,'' Quinlan said, a mischievous grin folding new creases into his wrinkled face. ``It's serious business trying to get people to come to Mass.''

Quinlan promises to go easy on his newest parish, the Church of the Holy Family in Virginia Beach. He celebrates his first Mass there tonight. His best friend, Monsignor Thomas J. Caroluzza of Holy Spirit Catholic Church, shakes his head when he imagines how Quinlan's new parishioners will react.

``God help them,'' said Caroluzza, who was ordained with Quinlan 42 years ago. ``It's going to be exciting for Virginia Beach.''

Quinlan's friend doubts T.Q., as Quinlan likes to be called, will be able to hold back for very long.

``I'm going to try to be quiet for a while,'' said Quinlan, who lives like a hermit but swears like a sailor. ``Caroluzza
gives me two weeks.''

Quinlan has a reputation not only for entertaining his flock but also for demanding much from them. At the congregation Quinlan just left, St. Kateri Tekakwitha Catholic Church in Poquosan, Quinlan asked everyone to tithe 5 percent of their income. As a result, Caroluzza said, Quinlan's flock contributed more money
every week - an average of $28 each - than any other congregation in the diocese. Most churches average only $5 a week per member.

``His idea is that if you are a committed Catholic, then it's not just a Sunday thing,'' said Claudette Starrett, a member at St. Kateri. ``If he felt like you were slouching, if it appeared to him you were living a lifestyle not commensurate with what you were bringing in, he would call you on it.''

Against his congregation's wishes, Quinlan decided to build a church thrift store, Caroluzza said. Now, the members thank him for doing it. The store's proceeds allowed St. Kateri to donate more than $42,000 last year to the poor. The store also provides low-cost clothing to needy people too proud to accept charity, Quinlan said.

As a pastor, Quinlan also sent ``red letters'' every year at Pentecost to members who hadn't participated in some kind of church ministry. Either start helping, Quinlan told them, or you're out.

Those kinds of demands drive some parishioners away, he acknowledged. ``The new members all beesh about it. Not everybody can take me.''

Some Christians are put off by Quinlan's colorful vocabulary, too, Starrett said. After complaints about Quinlan's wedding sermons - particularly his rather earthy advice about the importance of sex in a marriage - some engaged couples chose to ``sneak off to another parish'' to exchange vows, she said. Many of the letters on file with the bishop and the papal nuncio include complaints about T.Q.'s salty language from the pulpit.

``I've loosened up a lot,'' Starrett said. ``But I don't think I ever got used to hearing all the sexual innuendo.''

Children, especially, aren't sure what to make of T.Q., said Betty Jones, St. Kateri's vacation Bible school director. ``When the children are a little bit younger, they're afraid of him,'' Jones said. ``He is kind of scraggly.''

And not always patient, as Quinlan himself admits.

``All the little kids come up to me and say, `T.Q., you've got to stop smoking,' '' Quinlan said. ``I tell them to get the hell out of the way. They're all brainwashed little suburban monsters.''

Quinlan's shock tactics are simply his way of getting people's attention, said church administrator Elaine Riley.

`I wouldn't call it silly,'' Riley said. ``Coming down the aisle on a motorcycle isn't so important compared to having people go home and spend three hours discussing it. . . . Most people go home and they don't remember the homily five minutes out the door. But with T.Q., whether it's negative or positive, he makes you reflect on what you've heard.''

St. Kateri, although only 14 years old, now has 850 members. During Quinlan's tenure at St. Mary's in Norfolk, from 1974 to 1985, the congregation tripled in size.

And 1,500 people turned out two years ago to participate in Quinlan's grandest production yet - his own funeral. Or, to be precise, ``a pre-funeral gala'' on Quinlan's 40th anniversary as a priest. Mourners marched in a long procession led by a New Orleans-style brass bands playing upbeat hymns. Quinlan rode in the hearse.

``You can't talk at your own funeral,'' said Quinlan, who at over 6-foot-3 is gaunt and haggard but still kicking. ``I wanted to talk at mine.''

Caroluzza belted out ``Don't Cry for Me, Church of Richmond,'' to the tune of the theme song from ``Evita.'' Even Bishop Walter F. Sullivan, who has long tolerated Quinlan's antics, read a poem called ``An Ode to the Blue Angel.''

It was only at about the time of Quinlan's mock funeral that he began revealing his real age, Caroluzza said. ``Each time he's moved, he's taken another year off his age,'' said the monsignor, the regional vicar for southeastern Virginia. ``He only started telling the truth when he hit 68, because he knows you can only
retire at 70.''

T.Q. dismisses the idea of stepping down from the priesthood. ``What would I do - retire and write dirty novels?''

But Quinlan is more than just a jokester, Caroluzza said. He is, in the words of St. Paul, a ``fool for Christ'' - a label that Quinlan relishes as a great compliment.

``If it were just zaniness, it would be one hijink after another,'' Caroluzza said. ``The zany stories are the only ones
people remember. They don't remember his visiting the sick. That's the real T.Q.''

If Quinlan refuses to behave, Caroluzza said, it's partly to avoid ``playing footsie with authority.'' The mischievous priest is determined to stay on the margins, to avoid the trappings and temptations of power.

``His quirks offend some people,'' Starrett said, ``but he's just very human. He doesn't want to be put on a pedestal.''

Quinlan's congregants feel free, too, to speak their minds, Starrett said. They confront him when they think he's gone too far. And they intervene when they see him in serious trouble.

Quinlan, like so many artistic personalities, has a drinking problem.Alcoholism runs in his family, and Quinlan has battled the problem since he was a teen-ager, Caroluzza said. The bishop has sent him to alcohol counseling in the past. In newspaper interviews in the 1980s, the priest said that he had been able to quit.

But last year, Quinlan was convicted of driving under the influence of alcohol. He was fined $250 and referred to an alcohol recovery program. Quinlan didn't want to talk about the conviction, but he said that on that occasion he was only driving a few hundred feet to a store. He hasn't had a drink since September, he said.

Starrett said her priest's problem is well-known.

``It's part of his humanness,'' she said. ``Some people can't accept that from a priest. . . . It's a disease. But some people don't see it as a disease. They see it as a frailty - particularly in a priest - and think that's worse.''

Congregants such as Jones say they appreciate Quinlan's honesty. ``There's no way you can keep this quiet,'' she said. ``He's very upfront. . . . He's working on it.''

Caroluzza said Quinlan was both humble and courageous when facing up to his parish.

``He went to his congregation and said, `I can leave.' They said, `We don't want you to leave. We want you to change,' '' Caroluzza said. ``His community really loved him. They loved him into sobriety.''

He's only been gone a few days, but many at St. Kateri miss Quinlan already. Jones has a feeling that Quinlan's reputation has preceded him to Holy Family. She envies that parish, though, for its chance to be with her old pastor.

``I hope they give him a chance,'' she said. ``Learn to love him the way the rest of us do. He's a good man, with a good heart, an intelligent man who can teach them a lot.''

Some who attend Holy Family don't know what to expect.

``When it comes to church, this is the word of the Lord and it should be respected with utmost dignity,'' said Tom Pauls. ``If this guy comes in on a motorcycle, I'm going to find another church.''

Others are looking forward to the adventure.

``I think he'll be a tremendous asset to the parish,'' said Dan Creedon, who also has not yet met his new pastor. ``I know that he's very dedicated to the poor. That's what the church is about.''

Quinlan knows that it may take time for his parish to get used to him. His most loyal fans always come 20 years after he's left, he said. And, these days, it's getting harder and harder to shock anyone.

``I'm the age now that I can do no wrong,'' Quinlan said. ``It's sort of sad.''[/i]

This article is so stupid. It paints this man to be some kind of hero when he's just sad and somewhat deluded.

Edited November 30, 2004 by toledo_jesus

[FutureSoror]

From the Pieta Prayer Book:

THE PRIESTHOOD IS A MASTERPIECE OF
CHRIST'S DIVINE LOVE, WISDOM AND POWER

NEVER ATTACK A PRIEST

"Jesus, Mary, I love You, Save Souls."

CRITICISM OF PRIESTS
Our Lord's revelations to Mutter Vogel

"One should NEVER attack a priest, even when he's in error, rather one should pray and do penance that I'll grant him My grace again. He alone fully represents Me, even when he doesn't live after My example!" (page 29, Mutter Vogel's Worldwide Love, St. Grignion Publishing House, Altoting, South Germany (29. 6. 1929)).

When a Priest falls we should extend him a helping hand THROUGH PRAYER AND NOT THROUGH ATTACKS! "I myself will be his judge, NO ONE BUT I!" "Whoever voices judgment over a priest has voiced it over Me; child, never let a Priest be attacked, take up his defense." (Feast of Christ the King 1937) "Child, Never judge your confessor, rather pray much for him and offer every Thursday, through the hands of My blessed Mother, Holy Communion (for Him) (18.6. 1939)&nsp; "Never again accept an out-of-the-way word about a Priest, and speak no unkind word (about them) EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE! Every Priest is My Vicar and My heart will be sickened and insulted because of it! If you hear a judgment (against a Priest) pray a Hail Mary." (28. 6. 1939)

"If you see a Priest who celebrates the Holy Mass unworthily then say nothing about him, rather tell it to Me alone! I stand beside him on the altar!" "Oh pray much for My priests, that they'll love purity above all, that they'll celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with pure hands and heart. Certainly the Holy Sacrifice is one and the same even when it is celebrated by an unworthy priest, but the graces called down upon the people is not the same!" (28. 2. 1938)

Mary. Queen of the Clergy, pray for them.

Edited November 30, 2004 by FutureSoror

[toledo_jesus]

drat.

[popestpiusx]

A man guilty of public heresy (and all sorts of foul behavior), priest or no, must stand public scrutiny. This guy is bad news. THere is nothing wrong with pointing that out and the article is a matter of public record. I read the same article in the paper when it was first published.

But we should most definately pray for him.

[cmotherofpirl]

Scriptures tells us to judge actions. Sorry, there are no exemptions listed for clergy.

[qfnol31]

I think I agree with that article, but then again, to say someone is supporting heresy isn't attacking them at all.

I hate it when I say something someone is bad and someone says "Jesus told us not to judge." Umm, no, Jesus says don't judge culpability, we can definately judge what actions are evil...

[toledo_jesus]

....

[FutureSoror]

All I'm saying is that we have to be careful about what we say, no hard feelings or anything.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='FutureSoror' date='Nov 30 2004, 11:40 AM'] All I'm saying is that we have to be careful about what we say, no hard feelings or anything. [/quote]
Sorry if my post sounded mean. I have had people over me tell me not to judge, and so I have disagreements with it.

[mark3200]

I can't hold hands with my wife? Yikes!

[cmotherofpirl]

Sure you can hold hands with your wife, but why would you want to do it during the Our Father, since you can hold hands with her every moment the rest of the week.

The point is we don't add things just because we like to do it.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 3 2004, 08:54 AM'] Sure you can hold hands with your wife, but why would you want to do it during the Our Father, since you can hold hands with her every moment the rest of the week.

The point is we don't add things just because we like to do it. [/quote]
B.I.N.G.O.
B.I.N.G.O.
B.I.N.G.O.

and Bingo was his naaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeee.......O.

[bookin'it]

[quote name='cappie' date='Nov 25 2004, 04:52 PM'] A different case is the practice in which some people adopt the "orantes" posture during the Our Father, praying like the priest, with hands extended.

In some countries, Italy, for example, the Holy See has granted the bishops' request to allow anyone who wishes to adopt this posture during the Our Father. Usually about a third to one-half of the assembled faithful choose to do so. [/quote]

All For the Glory of God!

Thank you to Cure of Ars for starting this thread and all who have contributed - I have learned much from it.

My query is related to this discussion: several times during the Mass the priest extends his hands towards the congregation and says, "The Lord be with you." Is it ok for one to extend his hands towards the priest while responding "and also with you"?

Thanks.

Edited December 15, 2004 by bookin'it

[phatcatholic]

anyone?

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='bookin'it' date='Dec 15 2004, 04:17 AM']
All For the Glory of God!

Thank you to Cure of Ars for starting this thread and all who have contributed - I have learned much from it.

My query is related to this discussion: several times during the Mass the priest extends his hands towards the congregation and says, "The Lord be with you." Is it ok for one to extend his hands towards the priest while responding "and also with you"?

Thanks. [/quote]
The rubrics do not address the posture of the congregation. By doing so, you would not be breaking any directives. But you wouldn't be following any specific directive.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it. It just isn't addressed by the Church.

[p0lar_bear]

As to holding hands during the Our Father, it is discouraged but not prohibited. When asked about it, the Congregation for Divine Worhsip said only that "it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative." The rubrics simply do not give any directives for the posture of the congregation for the Lord's Prayer. The Church has said that it cannot replace the Sign of Peace.

Because it is not contrary to the rubrics, canon law, or any other directives, there is nothing preventing the faithful from doing it of their own initiative.

If you do not like the practice, you can explain why you don't like it and why you think it is inappropriate, but do not pressume to claim your opinion is that of the Church. The Church simply has chosen not to address the issue.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 24 2004, 01:14 PM'] What if I decide to dance during the offeratory hymn? [/quote]
Well, since you are from a western culture, you be breaking a directive. The Church has said that liturgical dance in inapproriate in western cultures. The Church has made no such statement in regard to holding hands.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Dec 16 2004, 02:29 AM'] As to holding hands during the Our Father, it is discouraged but not prohibited. [/quote]
THANK YOU!!!!

btw, to those who believe that holding hands is prohibited, why wouldn't placing our hands in the "orans position" be prohibited? if holding hands is prohibited based on the idea that the faithful can't propose alterations to the liturgy, then wouldn't the orans position during the Our Father be prohibited as well?