Is it not True?

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 1 2004, 04:28 PM'] especially if the Mass readings are in Latin. [/quote]
Yes, in order to be in line with Church Tradition [i]and Vatican II[/i], the readings--and the entire Mass--ought to be in Latin.

[qfnol31]

No, you misunderstand Vatican II and Trent.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Dec 1 2004, 05:06 PM'] First: CatholicCrusader, Cmom is right. You come across as quite uncharitable (sometimes condescending) toward others. Not nice.
[/quote]
I suppose calling a spade a spade and condemning error outright may seem "condascending", but it is not. Neither is it uncharitable to condemn all heresy and error in the strictest terms. I do not condemn the sinner but the sin--the sinner cannot be condemned in the same way, for it is impossible to know whether he will reform. One could say of the heretic: you will be damned if you do not convert, always qualifying the statement, but he need not make such a qualification when condmening the error, e.g.: Protestantism is a damnable heresy. No qualification is needed, as the heresy itself is always damnable.

I hope that clears up my intention and purpose for my threads. God bless.

[Don John of Austria]

Vatican II did say that the Mass was to remain in Latin but that has nothing to do with this topic.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 1 2004, 05:29 PM'] No, you misunderstand Vatican II and Trent. [/quote]
I misunderstand Trent by saying Latin must be preserved? In fact, at Trent one could not use any other language than Latin for the Holy Sacrifice in the Latin Rite (hence the name...). As far as Vatican II, it uses like terms, John XXIII and Paul VI both saying: The Latin language must be preserved, and the us of Latin is an APOSTOLIC TRADITION.

Vatican II didn't call for a new Mass. It didn't call for an exclusively vernacular Mass. It [i]permitted[/i]--and never even encouraged--the use of the vernacular SOMETIMES. Never did it say: the entire Mass ought to be in the vernacular; Latin ought to be condemned. No, quite the contrary. Nevertheless, that is the idea in the NO today.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Dec 1 2004, 06:31 PM'] I suppose calling a spade a spade and condemning error outright may seem "condascending", but it is not. Neither is it uncharitable to condemn all heresy and error in the strictest terms. I do not condemn the sinner but the sin--the sinner cannot be condemned in the same way, for it is impossible to know whether he will reform. One could say of the heretic: you will be damned if you do not convert, always qualifying the statement, but he need not make such a qualification when condmening the error, e.g.: Protestantism is a damnable heresy. No qualification is needed, as the heresy itself is always damnable.

I hope that clears up my intention and purpose for my threads. God bless. [/quote]
Charity is the form, mover, mother, and root of all virtues.
-St. Thomas Aquinas-

Be gentle to all and stern with yourself.
-St. Teresa of Avila-

[qfnol31]

Okay, I agree then. I thought you said must, my mistake. But I don't know about the readings. I believe they said that Latin should be preserved for the Mass, not necessarily the readings (which I believe should be in the vernacular). Every Tridentine Mass I've been to they do the readings in both languages.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 1 2004, 05:36 PM'] Okay, I agree then. I thought you said must, my mistake. But I don't know about the readings. I believe they said that Latin should be preserved for the Mass, not necessarily the readings (which I believe should be in the vernacular). Every Tridentine Mass I've been to they do the readings in both languages. [/quote]
If it says the Mass ought to be in Latin, then that includes the readings, which are a part of the Mass. The Priest has the option to read them in the vernacular at the sermon, if he so chooses, but that itself was not practiced very often prior to the twentieth century.

[cmotherofpirl]

One of the reasons I dislike going to a Trid Mass.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Dec 1 2004, 05:31 PM']I suppose calling a spade a spade and condemning error outright may seem "condascending", but it is not.[/quote]
There's a big difference between "calling a spade a spade" and being condescending/uncharitable.

It's fine to call a spade a spade; but the virtues of charity and humility shouldn't be thrown out the window.

[b]Charity[/b]: because Saint Paul tells us what happens to us what the Truth sounds like without Charity (it's a "resounding gong").

[b]Humility[/b]: because if we act like we know more than we really do and we slip up, people are bound to call us on it and teach us humility the hard way.

[quote]Vatican II didn't call for a new Mass[/quote]
I think it actually did call for revisions to the Mass. From [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html"]SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM (link)[/url]:
[quote]The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the liturgy.[/quote]

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 19 2004, 12:10 AM'] What the Psalm says is that all the gods of the Gentiles are devils. What it clearly means is that every god they invented is actuallty a devil. It means when they are worshipping their false gods, they are actually worshipping devils, not just the figment of their imagination (hence they are worshipping evil not nothing). [/quote]
Hey, CatholicCrusader, we actually agree on something!

Someone said above that the 'nice' pagan gods were probably figments of their imaginations. I would disagree. Satan loves to lead us away from God, and a (false) deity doesn't have to be bloodthirsty and demon-like to do so.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 1 2004, 06:07 PM'] Someone said above that the 'nice' pagan gods were probably figments of their imaginations. I would disagree. Satan loves to lead us away from God, and a (false) deity doesn't have to be bloodthirsty and demon-like to do so. [/quote]
Who said anything about "nice" pagan gods?

Maybe this statement is a figment of your imagination? Or maybe a bloodthirsty demon compelled you to believe this. LOL

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 1 2004, 05:07 PM'] Hey, CatholicCrusader, we actually agree on something!
[/quote]
now I'm really scared...


and for the record, that was a joke...

[FutureSoror]

I don't think that the Greek gods were figments of people's imaginations, or the Egyptian ones either. If you've ever read Herodotus or similar ancient histories you know that there has to be some kind of power behind things like the oracle at Delphi.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Nov 18 2004, 08:27 PM'] quoniam omnes dii gentium daemonia at vero Dominus caelos fecit
"All the gods of the Gentiles are devils, but the Lord made the heavens."
Psalm XCV

This is quite a touchy topic among many reformist (ecumenical) "Catholics". I have heard some good speakers on the issue, especially Gerry Matatics, but this truth is one that is often ignored, hated, or altogether misrepresented by many so-called "Catholic" reformists, both 'theologians' and speakers alike. I am curious to see what the consensus at Phatmass is. [/quote]
I believe that some are... we know that the fallen angels taught the ancient Egyptians sorcery, and I would think that the fallen angels are were the Egyptian religion originated from.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 2 2004, 12:37 PM'] I believe that some are... we know that the fallen angels taught the ancient Egyptians sorcery, and I would think that the fallen angels are were the Egyptian religion originated from.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Funny, I thought the ancient Egyptian gods were aliens from outerspace who's use of travel devices called, Stargates allowed them to seed the universe with human beings to be used as slaves.

Or maybe I just watch too much sci-fi channel...




Sorry, to hi-jack - just couldn't help it!

On to your regularly scheduled interesting debate....

:abduction:

[Don John of Austria]

Kilroy get out of my debate you are going to turn this into an inanity better fit for open mic!




Now every one pagan gods = devils thas where we were.

[Donna]

Yes, and we sez Precious, wiff Naffan and thou, that if wimpy imagination gods began thus, a devil was there (sss) soon enough, to cleave to its nothingness.

I shall miss the twins! But y'all are making some grand threads.

ROTFL.

[color=orange]Cmom, come! With MEEE! To Mass w/ readings thou canst not understand! It is for the besssst, Precious.

You'll see[/color]

[color=green][i]Too-da-loo[/i]!!!!!!!!!![/color]