Icthus this is for you...

[ironmonk]

[b]Please show us with the Catechism where Mary has been made divine and I'll join whatever church you want me to [/b]

[i][u][b]OR [/b][/u][/i][b]concede that you were wrong about Catholic Teaching on Mary[/b].


I and many others here are tired of you insulting our faith with lies.

Prove this one point to us, and we all would be wrong to stay Catholic.
Prove this one point to us, and I'll do my best to battle the Church.



God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited November 25, 2004 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

Here are some links to take you to the Catechism where Mary is mentioned:


[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3p2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3p2.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p6.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p6.htm[/url]

God Bless,
ironmonk

[conservativecatholic]

hehehe. nice job ironmonk. I'm waiting for a reply myself. Icthus won't find a single doctrine in the Catholic Church that supports the divinity of Mary. I wish the best of luck to him.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
11/25 - Thanksgiving Day

To help you along, ICTHUS, here's some articles from St. Thomas' [i]Summa[/i] on the Blessed Virgin Mary. Questions 27-33 of the Prima Secundae deal specifically with the Blessed Virgin.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4.htm[/url]

[ICTHUS]

What I was referring to when I said that was people who,

1. Say that Mary is inherently sinless, a property the Bible indicates is naturally inherent only in Jesus Christ, the righteous one, and that the rest of us are naturally devoid of righteousness (with no special exception made for Mary) cf. Romans 3:23

2. Say that Mary is our mediator before God, when the Bible says that there is only one mediator between God and man.

3. Say that Mary is a redeemer of humanity, when there is only one Redeemer.

In saying these things, these people make Mary into a second Jesus - they set her up as equal to Him.

[Guest Aluigi]

1. Mary is not inherently sinless, she is sinless because of Christ.

2. Mary subordinately mediates by bringing us to Jesus, like any other Christian who prays for us either in heaven or on earth. She's just the closest, she was chosen to be His mom why wouldn't she be highest in the kingdom of heaven, closest to Jesus out of all the saints (popular and unpopular)

3. Mary is not a redeemer of humanity, but in the act of redeption she was a supplemental aspect employed by God to fully reverse the action of original sin, having both a sinless man and woman live a life of obedience.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 04:56 PM']

[/quote]
[quote]1. Mary is not inherently sinless, she is sinless because of Christ.[/quote] Of course. However, where does the Bible say she was sinless from conception? I'm not denying that she was justified by the imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith alone, I'm denying that she was justified from conception.

[quote]2. Mary subordinately mediates by bringing us to Jesus, like any other Christian who prays for us either in heaven or on earth.  She's just the closest, she was chosen to be His mom why wouldn't she be highest in the kingdom of heaven, closest to Jesus out of all the saints (popular and unpopular)[/quote] Why, then, doesn't the Catholic Church consider the Pope a mediator between God and man, or Paul, or Peter, or you or me? Why couldn't Judas be a mediator, since he 'brought us Jesus' by handing Him over to be crucified.

[quote]3. Mary is not a redeemer of humanity, but in the act of redeption she was a supplemental aspect employed by God to fully reverse the action of original sin, having both a sinless man and woman live a life of obedience.[/quote] So why even apply the title to her? Also, couldn't this title be applied to Judas, since he 'participated in the redemption'

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:20 PM'] Of course. However, where does the Bible say she was sinless from conception? I'm not denying that she was justified by the imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith alone, I'm denying that she was justified from conception. [/quote]
Luke Chapter I Verse xxviii
my post from the "Is this you" thread:
Premise: The Angel Gabriel's words to Mary indicate Mary never commited sin

The Gospel according to St. Luke, Chapter I, Verse xxviii says:
ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΧΑΙΡΕ ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ Ο ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΟΥ
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women

the term in question, translated by St. Jerome as "full of grace" and by modern translators as "highly favored one" is this:
ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ

greekbible.com says this is from the root ΧΑΡΙΤΟΩ {khar-ee-to'-o}, a verb meaning:
1) to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ is a perfect passive participle of that verb.
"The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action: " according to the Greek grammarian Gresham Machen. Examples of the perfect past participle:
[quote]QUOTE
The perfect is used in Matthew 4:4,7,10 ("it is written"). Literally translated, "It has been written in the past and is still in force." Hence, Jesus expresses the Continuing authority of God’s written law by using the perfect tense. The perfect tense is also found Matthew 16:19 ("…whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"). "Shall be bound in heaven" is a perfect passive participle (The Analytical Greek lexicon. Pg85). Jesus is telling Peter that what he (Peter) bound would have already been bound in heaven.[/quote]

This quote is from [url="http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm"]http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm[/url] Notice, ironically, the very next sentence says Peter was not the first pope laugh.gif...yeah, that's right, i'm not afraid to use Protestant Bible Scholars if they can provide insight into the scriptures. however, short refutation: we never said the pope can add something that wasn't already true in heaven. let's not debate this point, though, but stay on the Mary thing.

Therefore, when it is used in Luke 1:28, it means, you have been graced, favorable, agreeable, always and it is still so.

If, as I believe I saw you concede to agree with me on, at the moment one is sinning God does not favor them, then Mary could not have sinned and been always favored by God for her entire life every moment. this indirectly indicates she must either not have had original sin or been released from it very very early on in life, seconds after her creation at most I would say if she was to never commit any sin thus always being favorable to God. the best explanation is that of the Early Church Fathers, that she supplementally fulfills the reversal of the event of original sin by being the New Eve to Christ's New Adam. here's the clincher (it will only clinch it if you admit everything so far, up to the admittance that the Early Church was correct in labeling Mary the New Eve), at least in my opinion, for why Christ's merits were infused to her that she would be sinless at the moment of her creation.

The person of Eve was created out of the person of Adam who was created out of the earth.
The person of Mary was sinless of of the sinlessness of the person of Adam who came from Heaven.

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:20 PM'] Why, then, doesn't the Catholic Church consider the Pope a mediator between God and man, or Paul, or Peter, or you or me? Why couldn't Judas be a mediator, since he 'brought us Jesus' by handing Him over to be crucified. [/quote]
they are all considered subordinate mediators. Mary is considered to be the highest subordinate mediator because she is closest to Jesus.

the Pope probably prays for all Christians every day. He's not in heaven, he's on earth, so you'd have to be in physical proximity to him to ask him to pray for you and he's not in the beatific vision and in eternal heaven so he couldn't handle so many personal prayer requests like a person in heaven could. but Paul himself subordinately mediated,

are we to assume he really saved people? or did he merely bring them to Jesus and Jesus saved them

Rom. 11:13-14 - I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ's work of salvation.

are we to assume a husband or wife really save each other? or aren't they subordinately mediating?
1 Cor. 7:16 - Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ's salvific work.

Is he saving some, or bringing them to Christ to be saved, subordinate mediation.
1 Cor. 9:22 - Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.

will Timothy save anyone, or will he subordinately mediate?
1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.

can you save the soul of a sinner, or do you subordinately mediate to bring Him to Jesus that Jesus will save him
James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.

can we save anyone, or merely subordinately mediate them to Christ that Christ saves them?
Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.

Judas was an unwilling "mediator". We wouldn't consider him worthy of the title, because he didn't intend to bring people to Jesus, he intended to get Jesus killed.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:20 PM'] So why even apply the title to her? Also, couldn't this title be applied to Judas, since he 'participated in the redemption' [/quote]
because in being a supplemental aspect to the act of salvation, she truly is the co-redemptrix, in that alongside but subordinate to Christ, she also lived a sinless life and suffered immensely unjustly, a soul pierced her heart. her life, as the supplemental aspect of the fulfillment of all redemption, makes her co-redemptrix.

Again, Judas unwillingly participated in the redeption. The only two that followed along the same path for her life, the path of reversing the first parent's sins, were Jesus and Mary.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:28 PM'] they are all considered subordinate mediators. Mary is considered to be the highest subordinate mediator because she is closest to Jesus.

the Pope probably prays for all Christians every day. He's not in heaven, he's on earth, so you'd have to be in physical proximity to him to ask him to pray for you and he's not in the beatific vision and in eternal heaven so he couldn't handle so many personal prayer requests like a person in heaven could. but Paul himself subordinately mediated,

are we to assume he really saved people? or did he merely bring them to Jesus and Jesus saved them

Rom. 11:13-14 - I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ's work of salvation.

are we to assume a husband or wife really save each other? or aren't they subordinately mediating?
1 Cor. 7:16 - Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ's salvific work.

Is he saving some, or bringing them to Christ to be saved, subordinate mediation.
1 Cor. 9:22 - Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.

will Timothy save anyone, or will he subordinately mediate?
1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.

can you save the soul of a sinner, or do you subordinately mediate to bring Him to Jesus that Jesus will save him
James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.

can we save anyone, or merely subordinately mediate them to Christ that Christ saves them?
Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.

Judas was an unwilling "mediator". We wouldn't consider him worthy of the title, because he didn't intend to bring people to Jesus, he intended to get Jesus killed. [/quote]
i love it when catholics quote scripture
and they say we dont read our bibles

[Guest Aluigi]

hehe... well actually i must admit THAT was from a cheat sheat at [url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com[/url] in the interest of honesty. however, I assure you I've read every single one of those quotes in context (like I was reading the entire book and came upon it) and got the same impression from them about subordinate mediation.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:22 PM']

If, as I believe I saw you concede to agree with me on, at the moment one is sinning God does not favor them, then Mary could not have sinned and been always favored by God for her entire life every moment. this indirectly indicates she must either not have had original sin or been released from it very very early on in life, seconds after her creation at most I would say if she was to never commit any sin thus always being favorable to God. the best explanation is that of the Early Church Fathers, that she supplementally fulfills the reversal of the event of original sin by being the New Eve to Christ's New Adam. here's the clincher (it will only clinch it if you admit everything so far, up to the admittance that the Early Church was correct in labeling Mary the New Eve), at least in my opinion, for why Christ's merits were infused to her that she would be sinless at the moment of her creation.

The person of Eve was created out of the person of Adam who was created out of the earth.
The person of Mary was sinless of of the sinlessness of the person of Adam who came from Heaven.[/quote]
[quote]If, as I believe I saw you concede to agree with me on, at the moment one is sinning God does not favor them, then Mary could not have sinned and been always favored by God for her entire life every moment. this indirectly indicates she must either not have had original sin or been released from it very very early on in life, seconds after her creation at most I would say if she was to never commit any sin thus always being favorable to God.[/quote] A person can still be justified and commit sin. As the WCF puts it. (XVII, iii.) (Parentheses mine)

III. Nevertheless they may (though they "can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved", cf (XVII, i.)),through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevelancy of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; ad for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon theselves.

Also, was Stephen sinless as well?

Acts 6:8 (Douay-Rheims)

And Stephen, [b]full of grace[/b] and fortitude, did great wonders and signs among the people.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:31 PM'] because in being a supplemental aspect to the act of salvation, she truly is the co-redemptrix, in that alongside but subordinate to Christ, she also lived a sinless life and suffered immensely unjustly, a soul pierced her heart.  her life, as the supplemental aspect of the fulfillment of all redemption, makes her co-redemptrix.

Again, Judas unwillingly participated in the redeption.  The only two that followed along the same path for her life, the path of reversing the first parent's sins, were Jesus and Mary. [/quote]
Sorry, but nobody except Jesus saved me. Major kudos to the Blessed Virgin for bringing Him into the world, but it was Jesus who suffered and died to pay the penalty for my sins, not Mary.

Edited November 26, 2004 by ICTHUS

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:28 PM'] they are all considered subordinate mediators. [/quote]
Then why doesn't the Catholic Church have a huge movement to get every Christian on earth called a 'co-mediator/mediatrix'? It's because Roman Catholics have this fixation with Mary - they love to elevate her more and more - one of these days, they are going to declare her equal to Jesus - heck, the Catholic Church cathedral in my city already has - they have two huge portraits behind the altar, one of Jesus and the other of Mary, and Jesus isn't even portrayed as higher than Mary.