Icthus this is for you...

[Guest Aluigi]

your last post is just like my post in the other thread that i called "a taste of your own medicine"

the greek does not use the perfect past participle, so that is irrelevant. he was favored by God at that moment, not necessarily thoughout his entire life.

i ask you, at the moment someone is sinning, are they favorable to God? to say they are would be scandelous because that would show God somewhat condoning their action if he finds them favorable at that point. this isn't even about whether someone commits mortal sin and looses God's favor until they repent or not, obviously we disagree there, but it is about the moment of a sin. am i pleasing to God the moment i am climaxing with a partner who is not my wife? no i am not, i am grevious to God at that point in time.

He continues to love me and care for me and in your view consider me justified, but I am certainly not favorable.

therefore, an angel would never say to me "you have always been and still are highly favourable to God"
no one would ever say that about anyone in history except for Mary (or Jesus).

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Budge]

[quote]What I was referring to when I said that was people who,

1. Say that Mary is inherently sinless, a property the Bible indicates is naturally inherent only in Jesus Christ, the righteous one, and that the rest of us are naturally devoid of righteousness (with no special exception made for Mary) cf. Romans 3:23

2. Say that Mary is our mediator before God, when the Bible says that there is only one mediator between God and man.

3. Say that Mary is a redeemer of humanity, when there is only one Redeemer.

In saying these things, these people make Mary into a second Jesus - they set her up as equal to Him. [/quote]

I totally agree.

When I read the latest off Zenit with the Pope saying STAY CLOSE TO MARY...

how is Collyriddianism not going today.

Edited November 27, 2004 by Budge

[Mateo el Feo]

Maybe, just to be safe, you might want to edit out the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke. Verses 28 and 48 should be especially troubling to people who are so against devotion to the Mother of God.

Though it is tried by many, one cannot separate the Holy Bible from the visible Church on earth. Christianity is not a religion based on a book (like Islam). It is a religion based on the Word of God, incarnate: Jesus Christ, who founded a visible Church to bring His gospel to the ends of the earth. We are a religion with Scripture and Tradition, both inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit.

[quote name='Budge' date='Nov 26 2004, 10:12 PM']When I read the latest off Zenit with the Pope saying STAY CLOSE TO MARY...

how is Collyriddianism not going today.[/quote]
If the Pope is saying to stay close to Mary, how different is this from John 19:26, 27?

[quote]When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son."  Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.[/quote]

I still don't understand how all these splinter protestant sects, with their distrust of the Catholic Church, put so much trust in the Sacred Scriptures, handed down through generations of Catholic scribes.

God bless.

[musturde]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 26 2004, 04:51 PM'] What I was referring to when I said that was people who,

1. Say that Mary is inherently sinless, a property the Bible indicates is naturally inherent only in Jesus Christ, the righteous one, and that the rest of us are naturally devoid of righteousness (with no special exception made for Mary) cf. Romans 3:23

2. Say that Mary is our mediator before God, when the Bible says that there is only one mediator between God and man.

3. Say that Mary is a redeemer of humanity, when there is only one Redeemer.

In saying these things, these people make Mary into a second Jesus - they set her up as equal to Him. [/quote]
Ichthus, I can understand you interpretting something such as the Bible but interpretting our views on Mary? I mean, in this case I thought you'd just be able to ask and that would be it...

[ironmonk]

Notice how anti-Catholics dare not post links to the Catechism to "prove" their point?


Ich,
You are wrong about Catholic teaching of Mary. That has been established, if you don't have the humility to admit when you're wrong, that's ok, we won't judge you because of it. We'll pray for you even more.

Why do you insist on bible alone when the bible points to the Church?! (St. John 14, St. Matt 18:17, 1 Tim. 3:15) And yes you insist on bible alone when you say things like "It doesn't say that in the bible about Mary".


Why not actually look instead of going on rumors that you've heard?


If you want to be taken seriously, please do your homework. If for no other reason to try to prove the Catholic Church wrong.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ICTHUS]

Ironmonk, do you deny that there are movements within the Catholic Church that want Mary made equal with Jesus in the respect that they want to make her a co-mediator and co-redeemer?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 01:38 AM'] Ironmonk, do you deny that there are movements within the Catholic Church that want Mary made equal with Jesus in the respect that they want to make her a co-mediator and co-redeemer? [/quote]
"co-redemtrix" means "WOMAN WITH THE REDEEMER"
"mediatrix" basically means that Mary brings us closer to Christ.


[i]co [/i][u]DOES NOT[/u] mean [i]equal[/i]


i.e. a co-pilot [b]IS NOT[/b] equal to the pilot.


No Catholic believes that Mary is equal to Christ.

There are not any Catholic movements that say Mary is equal to Christ.

To say that Mary is equal to Christ is heresy.

On a side note, since when does a "movement" equal Church teaching? Why can't you admit when you know your wrong? First you say that the Church teaches that Mary is divine, then all the sudden it's a "movement". This is furthering my theory that you were never Catholic.


Dude... you wouldn't be so far off base if you would ask the Catholics why we believe this or that instead of assume that such ridiculous things to be true.

[b]Please [/b]actually go to this link and read it:

[url="http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/co-redemptrix1.htm"]http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mar...redemptrix1.htm[/url]


Forget every negative thing you've ever been told about the Catholic teachings... Now, with a clean slate, ask us why this or that and study what we believe in an academic style from a real Catholic source, and then if you still hate the Church, at least it will be for what the Church really teaches.




God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited November 28, 2004 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

I will take the "no answer" to mean that you realize that you were wrong about what the Church teaches on Mary.

In which case you win because you should now know what the Church truly teaches about Mary.


Nothing is wrong with being wrong and not knowing the truth... something is majorly wrong with being wrong when knowing the truth.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited November 29, 2004 by ironmonk

[ICTHUS]

Ironmonk, I'm going to be honest with you (in a rare moment where I let my guard down):

The Catholic Church's teaching about Mary is hard to understand. I don't understand why you would permit a doctrine to be taught that could potentially lead people to elevate a mere creature to the level of a goddess, as happens all too often in places where education is poor and the prevalent ancient religion has such goddesses, such as Mexico and Guatemala with its Mayan people.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 1 2004, 07:43 PM'] The Catholic Church's teaching about Mary is hard to understand. I don't understand why you would permit a doctrine to be taught that could potentially lead people to elevate a mere creature to the level of a goddess, as happens all too often in places where education is poor and the prevalent ancient religion has such goddesses, such as Mexico and Guatemala with its Mayan people. [/quote]
Many things in life could potentially lead people astray if they aren't careful and well educated.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 1 2004, 08:43 PM'] Ironmonk, I'm going to be honest with you (in a rare moment where I let my guard down):

The Catholic Church's teaching about Mary is hard to understand. I don't understand why you would permit a doctrine to be taught that could potentially lead people to elevate a mere creature to the level of a goddess, as happens all too often in places where education is poor and the prevalent ancient religion has such goddesses, such as Mexico and Guatemala with its Mayan people. [/quote]
Thank you.

Learning about Christ is a lifelong process. Some things are harder to understand than others.

Anyone who wants to know what the teachings are, especially the poor, can be educated for free at their parish (in most cases - there are a few parishes that are lacking proper teaching).

To better understand it please read the articles on this page... I'm not asking you to agree with them or believe them... I'm just asking that you read them so that you better understand what the Church truly teaches.

1st: [url="http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/co-redemptrix1.htm"]http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mar...redemptrix1.htm[/url]

2nd: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp[/url]

One of the reasons why there is so much confusion is because of anti-Catholics claiming that we make Mary equal to Christ to Catholics who are young in the faith... Someone new to the faith might not have made it to understanding the doctrine on Mary.


Simply put: "co-" means "with"... Mary was with the Redeemer... the Redeemer was in her womb.... I know we agree on this... that is all co-redemtrix means. It's Latin, mostly people in America have the problem with this translation.

Simply put: Mediatrix means Mary helps bring us closer to Christ... She is our spiritual mother... just as we are brothers in Christ, His mother is our mother too... As on the Cross Christ tells John to behold his mother... the first Christians believed it to mean all Christians... so too do I because I know the first Christians cannot be wrong because Christ said they would be guided by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit would teach them. (St. John 14).


Please read those pages to better understand the teaching. Something else that might help you better understand things is try to understand one thing at a time... trying to study everything at once can be a massive task and get confusing. Some things do over lap.

Again, I thank you for simply saying it's hard to understand... and I understand your point of view.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[point5]

I had to elaborate of this:

Mary "full of grace" vs Stephen "full of grace

[b]Mary[/b] - one word, a verb, perfect passive participle, a past event with an ongoing presence. ALSO it is a name. The angel names Mary this verb in a sense it says "She who has been perfected in grace". We know it is a name because of the Salutation Chaire or "Hail" this is always followed by a name...ie Hail Jesus or Hail Ceasar.

[b]Stephen[/b] - two words, adjective and noun. He was full of grace but only at that particular moment in time. Present tense.


Peace

-Kiel