John Kerry

[Micheal5403]

I know it's a little late, but please give me your opinion.

[MagiDragon]

i kindof needed a maybe option: They were going against The Church if they knew that there are 5 issues that we cannot compromise on, and they looked at where the candidates stood on those five issues. (Bush was at least as good, if not better, on all 5 issues; there's no real room for debate on that.)

if they were completely ignorant of where the candidates stood, they were not going against The Church, but rather were simply going against common sense: A person without an opinion shouldn't muddy the waters by voting. That's why i didn't vote for any of the judges in my area . . . i don't know where they stand on the 'big five' issues. *shrugs*

I don't think i've said anything here that i need to retract . . . but i'm sure i'll think of something . . .

Peace,
Joe

[XIX]

Just wondering--is there any definitive statement coming from the Vatican saying something about the five non-negotiables?

[Socrates]

Hate to sound like an ignoramus, but what exactly are the "5 non-negotiables"? (just curious - keep seeing them referred to - I think abortion is one, but what are the other 4? Where are they defined?)

[Colleen]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 29 2004, 12:15 AM']Hate to sound like an ignoramus, but what exactly are the "5 non-negotiables"?  (just curious - keep seeing them referred to  - I think abortion is one, but what are the other 4?  Where are they defined?)[/quote]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp[/url]

[quote]THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES

These five current issues concern actions that are intrinsically evil and must never be promoted by the law. Intrinsically evil actions are those which fundamentally conflict with the moral law and can never be deliberately performed under any circumstances. It is a serious sin to deliberately endorse or promote any of these actions, and no candidate who really wants to advance the common good will support any action contrary to the non-negotiable principles involved in these issues.

1. Abortion

The Church teaches that, regarding a law permitting abortions, it is "never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or to vote for it" (EV 73). Abortion is the intentional and direct killing of an innocent human being, and therefore it is a form of homicide.

The unborn child is always an innocent party, and no law may permit the taking of his life. Even when a child is conceived through rape or incest, the fault is not the child's, who should not suffer death for others' sins.

2. Euthanasia

Often disguised by the name "mercy killing," euthanasia also is a form of homicide. No person has a right to take his own life, and no one has the right to take the life of any innocent person.

In euthanasia, the ill or elderly are killed, by action or omission, out of a misplaced sense of compassion, but true compassion cannot include intentionally doing something intrinsically evil to another person (cf. EV 73).

3. Embryonic Stem Cell Research

Human embryos are human beings. "Respect for the dignity of the human being excludes all experimental manipulation or exploitation of the human embryo" (CRF 4b).

Recent scientific advances show that often medical treatments that researchers hope to develop from experimentation on embryonic stem cells can be developed by using adult stem cells instead. Adult stem cells can be obtained without doing harm to the adults from whom they come. Thus there is no valid medical argument in favor of using embryonic stem cells. And even if there were benefits to be had from such experiments, they would not justify destroying innocent embryonic humans.

4. Human Cloning

"Attempts . . . for obtaining a human being without any connection with sexuality through 'twin fission,' cloning, or parthenogenesis are to be considered contrary to the moral law, since they are in opposition to the dignity both of human procreation and of the conjugal union" (RHL I:6).

Human cloning also involves abortion because the "rejected" or "unsuccessful" embryonic clones are destroyed, yet each clone is a human being.

5. Homosexual "Marriage"

True marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Legal recognition of any other union as "marriage" undermines true marriage, and legal recognition of homosexual unions actually does homosexual persons a disfavor by encouraging them to persist in what is an objectively immoral arrangement.

"When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral" (UHP 10).[/quote]

[qfnol31]

The five non-negotiables aren't actually defined, just taught. It's a distinction I like to make. What I mean is there's no infallible definition why they're wrong, the Church just teaches they are so (Evangelium Vitae is big on this).

I won't say that the people were sinning in voting for Kerry, but I would say that they was a lack of due order of goods in their voting, namely, the situation wasn't weighed correctly. I dunno, I hate saying that because it sounds bad....

[Apotheoun]

All five of the "non-negotiables" are definitive teachings of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium; thus, if a person knowingly and deliberately dissents from any one of them he is no longer in full communion with the Catholic Church. [cf. Pope John Paul II, Motu Proprio [u]Ad Tuendam Fidem[/u], nos. 3 and 4]

[SirMyztiq]

LOL

[cmotherofpirl]

What.

Does the thought of people actually having standards amuse you?

[toledo_jesus]

any catholic who does not know
1. that abortion is wrong and roundly condemned by the Church, and
2. that John Kerry is a big supporter of abortion, and
3. that 40,000,000+ (that's forty-million plus) lives since Roe v. Wade have been lost (there's your proportionality),
Has been living under a rock and should not be allowed to vote.

[Duc_In_Altum]

To my knowledge, Bush was verbally endorsed by the church in some way. At least the USCCB had some part in it. So, to vote for kerry, you would be going against the church. Don't quote me on that info tho.

God bless,

-Joe

[CatholicCrusader]

Didn't log out.

Edited November 29, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[amarkich]

The five "non-negotiables" are not the only five. These are the five that Karl Keating thought he would use in his little Voter's Guide. He skipped out on other fundamental non-negotiable issues like [b]contraception[/b], [b]divorce[/b], [b]separation of Church and State[/b], and other issues condemned by the Church. He probably had his motives for doing this, but it is ridiculous to pretend that these issues simply do not matter since they are already a part of American society. Voting for any of these (under the same circumstances as the other five) excommunicates a person as well.

[cmotherofpirl]

Show me where it says they are excommunionical offenses.

[amarkich]

I will look for the actual document, but where has the Church said that voting for the 5 issues (other than abortion) is excommunicable, i.e., stem cell research, cloning, and the other ones Keating came up with)?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Show me where it says they are excommunionical offenses. [/quote]

Cmom I have shown you all of those three things are Heresies which have been defined and are all subject to Excommunication. Do we really need to get the Syllubus of Errors out agian?

[popestpiusx]

Do we really need a reason to get it out? It is such pleasurable reading that I am ususally looking for a reason to get it out. So to answer your question: yes! yes!

[Apotheoun]

In partial support of Amarkich I feel that it is important to remember that the use of contraceptives, if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent, is a mortal sin, and so anyone who uses them is no longer in full communion with the Catholic Church. The same holds in the case of divorce, if the divorced person contracts another marriage, for then he too is no longer in full communion with the Church; in other words, he is not permitted to receive sacramental communion until he confesses his sin and reforms his life. [cf. CDF [u]Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church concerning the Reception of Holy Communion by the Divorced and Remarried Members of the Faithful[/u]] Moreover, Catholics are not permitted to support the distribution or sale of contraceptives, nor are they to give support to legislation that permits divorce.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Aluigi]

oops.. nvm

Edited November 29, 2004 by Aluigi

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Nov 29 2004, 03:40 PM']
Cmom I have shown you all of those three things are Heresies which have been defined and are all subject to Excommunication. Do we really need to get the Syllubus of Errors out agian? [/quote]
Yep you do. Show me where divorce and contraception are excommunicable offenses.