John Kerry

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Yep you do. Show me where divorce and contraception are excommunicable offenses. [/quote]
He didn't say that go back and reread his post---he said that supporting those things through your vote "under the same circumstances as the five" excommunicated you. These things are intrinsicly Evil and by supporting them one commits one to the side of Evil more than that support for those things ha been specificly condemned as a heresy worthy of Excommunication. If you would like I will dig out the actual errors in a few minutes, first I have to write lesson plans.

[Don John of Austria]

okay here are the relevant errors all are condemned as heresy and all are therefore cause for Excommunication.

On divorce--67. By the law of nature, the marriage tie is not indissoluble, and in many cases divorce properly so called may be decreed by the civil authority. -- Ibid.; Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.

73. In force of a merely civil contract there may exist between Christians a real marriage, and it is false to say either that the marriage contract between Christians is always a sacrament, or that there is no contract if the sacrament be excluded. -- Ibid.; Letter to the King of Sardinia, Sept. 9, 1852; Allocutions "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852, "Multis gravibusque," Dec. 17, 1860

74\ Matrimonial causes and espousals belong by their nature to civil tribunals. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9 1846; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851, "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851; Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.


on Seperation of Church and State--


41. The civil government, even when in the hands of an infidel sovereign, has a right to an indirect negative power over religious affairs. It therefore possesses not only the right called that of "exsequatur," but also that of appeal, called "appellatio ab abusu." -- Apostolic Letter "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851

42. In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers, the civil law prevails. -- Ibid.

43. The secular Dower has authority to rescind, declare and render null, solemn conventions, commonly called concordats, entered into with the Apostolic See, regarding the use of rights appertaining to ecclesiastical immunity, without the consent of the Apostolic See, and even in spite of its protest. -- Allocution "Multis gravibusque," Dec. 17, 1860; Allocution "In consistoriali," Nov. 1, 1850.

44. The civil authority may interfere in matters relating to religion, morality and spiritual government: hence, it can pass judgment on the instructions issued for the guidance of consciences, conformably with their mission, by the pastors of the Church. Further, it has the right to make enactments regarding the administration of the divine sacraments, and the dispositions necessary for receiving them. -- Allocutions "In consistoriali," Nov. 1, 1850, and "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.

45. The entire government of public schools in which the youth- of a Christian state is educated, except (to a certain extent) in the case of episcopal seminaries, may and ought to appertain to the civil power, and belong to it so far that no other authority whatsoever shall be recognized as having any right to interfere in the discipline of the schools, the arrangement of the studies, the conferring of degrees, in the choice or approval of the teachers. -- Allocutions "Quibus luctuosissimis," Sept. 5, 1851, and "In consistoriali," Nov. 1, 1850.

46. Moreover, even in ecclesiastical seminaries, the method of studies to be adopted is subject to the civil authority. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.

47. The best theory of civil society requires that popular schools open to children of every class of the people, and, generally, all public institutes intended for instruction in letters and philosophical sciences and for carrying on the education of youth, should be freed from all ecclesiastical authority, control and interference, and should be fully subjected to the civil and political power at the pleasure of the rulers, and according to the standard of the prevalent opinions of the age. -- Epistle to the Archbishop of Freiburg, "Cum non sine," July 14, 1864.

48. Catholics may approve of the system of educating youth unconnected with Catholic faith and the power of the Church, and which regards the knowledge of merely natural things, and only, or at least primarily, the ends of earthly social life. -- Ibid.

49. The civil power may prevent the prelates of the Church and the faithful from communicating freely and mutually with the Roman pontiff. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.

50. Lay authority possesses of itself the right of presenting bishops, and may require of them to undertake the administration of the diocese before they receive canonical institution, and the Letters Apostolic from the Holy See. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.

51. And, further, the lay government has the right of deposing bishops from their pastoral functions, and is not bound to obey the Roman pontiff in those things which relate to the institution of bishoprics and the appointment of bishops. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852, Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

52. Government can, by its own right, alter the age prescribed by the Church for the religious profession of women and men; and may require of all religious orders to admit no person to take solemn vows without its permission. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.

53. The laws enacted for the protection of religious orders and regarding their rights and duties ought to be abolished; nay, more, civil Government may lend its assistance to all who desire to renounce the obligation which they have undertaken of a religious life, and to break their vows. Government may also suppress the said religious orders, as likewise collegiate churches and simple benefices, even those of advowson and subject their property and revenues to the administration and pleasure of the civil power. -- Allocutions "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852; "Probe memineritis," Jan. 22, 1855; "Cum saepe," July 26, 1855.

54. Kings and princes are not only exempt from the jurisdiction of the Church, but are superior to the Church in deciding questions of jurisdiction. -- Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

55. The Church ought to be separated from the .State, and the State from the Church. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.


look particularly at 55 ( by they way 48 condemns approval of Public education)

[Don John of Austria]

is that enough?

[Guest Aluigi]

voting for bush is not promoting those evils. they exist, and the moment there is any slight chance they'll be taken down, I'm all for it. as it stands, we must first stop legalized murder and promote respect for human life from conception till natural death, and preserve the existing norms of Christian Morality that are recognized.

[Don John of Austria]

Cmom I am still waiting for your answer --- is that enough?

[cmotherofpirl]

Interesting, esp #48.
Catholic Schools today can be more dangerous to faith than public schools.
Where is it from?

Do you have anything a bit more current?

Edited December 1, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Don John of Austria]

It is from the sylubus of errors prumigated by blessed Pius IX it is current as it is Dogmaticly difined just as the trinity is current or the transubstantition is current.

And I srongly object to your Characterization of Catholic schools-- statisticly far more faithful church attending magestiruim following Catholics come out of Catholic schools that anywhere else.

Edited December 1, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 30 2004, 05:48 PM'] voting for bush is not promoting those evils. they exist, and the moment there is any slight chance they'll be taken down, I'm all for it. as it stands, we must first stop legalized murder and promote respect for human life from conception till natural death, and preserve the existing norms of Christian Morality that are recognized. [/quote]
It is a material participation in evil, meaning we are participating in evil, but we aren't doing it for the sake of evil, and are doing it because we have no other good choice.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote]48. Catholics may approve of the system of educating youth unconnected with Catholic faith and the power of the Church, and which regards the knowledge of merely natural things, and only, or at least primarily, the ends of earthly social life. -- Ibid. [/quote]

How is it that this is to be strictly interpreted as being condemnation of public schooling as we define it today? To me, this speaks of more of a condemnation towards the erroneous belief that youth need not be educated with the faith at all.

[zwergel88]

aparently I one of onl 4 people who voted 'no'. I totally don't think that voting for Kerry was wrong.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 1 2004, 01:38 PM'] It is from the sylubus of errors prumigated by blessed Pius IX it is current as it is Dogmaticly difined just as the trinity is current or the transubstantition is current.

And I srongly object to your Characterization of Catholic schools-- statisticly far more faithful church attending magestiruim following Catholics come out of Catholic schools that anywhere else. [/quote]
It all depends on the school.

There are good Catholic schools and there are bad Catholic schools.

Unfortunately a lot of "Catholic" schools essentially abandoned the Faith since the '60s and became Catholic in name only.
However, there are still good Catholic schools out there, including a number of new ones.

[Don John of Austria]

Your joking?


Well First it was written directly in answer to the public schooling forming in Europe at the time, but lets look at the Statement.



48. Catholics may approve of the system of educating youth unconnected with Catholic faith and the power of the Church, and which regards the knowledge of merely natural things, and only, or at least primarily, the ends of earthly social life. -- Ibid.




It is an error to approve of a system of educating youth unconnected with the Church. This means a SYSTEM just like it says, any system of education which is unconnected to the Church is condemned... is the Public school system connected with the Church? If not it is an error to approve of it, further more the error is explained further asa system ---which regards the knowledge of merely natural things... therefore it is an error to approve of any system which does not address the preternatural, and supernatural things.. as well as philosophical things such as ethics and morals. Furthermore, it is an error to approve of a system which regards only or primarly on the ends of earthly social life...hmmm have you ever read any of Dewey the archtect of [i]our[/i] public system ( yes the library guy) he stresses that the entire point of the Public school system was to make people "good americans" above all other things. No this was and is a condemnation of Public Education... in fact that fact has never really even been seriously disputed by anyone of note.

[Don John of Austria]

Socrates.

There are bad catholic schools but on the whole those who are products of catholic educatin are more involved in te Church in every way. At least according to Father Burrell of Notre Dame University's studies. By the way they also beat out all other schools of any kind in all areas of education except secondary Science ( not enough money for lab materials) and that area was inconclusive, only Jewish day schools came anywhare close in the other areas of education.

Edited December 3, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Ash Wednesday]

No, I was not joking. Was that directed towards me?

I was questioning the interpretation and offering my understanding of it in the context of how youth were catechized prior to the latter part of the 20th century. Weren't most if not all Catholic children educated in Catholic schools? And if the public schools were being set up, was he addressing the problem with regards to Catholics allowing their children to attend public school when in fact they needed to be attending the Catholic schools, where otherwise they would not be catechized or taught anything, as said, outside of the natural world? In the context of the times, the condemnation makes sense.

I've just never heard of whether or not you attended Catholic school as being a matter of being excommunicable offense. Maybe I am misinterpreting this but there are a lot of Catholics out there where no Catholic schools even exist. I grew up attending a public school because while we had a parish, there was no Catholic school in our town. It was closed in the 1970s.

[Don John of Austria]

Not attending is not an excommunicable offence, saying that Public education is okay, or acceptable or "just as good" or any other form of approval IS an excommunicable offence---- the Church has never required anyone to attend a Catholic school where none existed.

Edited December 3, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Ash Wednesday]

Okay -- thanks for the clarification. And that does make sense -- certainly one form of schooling is not "just as good" as another.

It's too bad our local Catholic school here closed in the 70s. The local "Catholic kids" were educated in the faith much better before then.

[Phatmasser777]

The same question could be asked for Bush since he contradicts many Church rules.

[InHisHands381]

So are you telling me that because my parents chose not to put me in a Catholic school because 1) They may not be the most active Catholics in the world, 2) They couldn't afford it, and 3) They didn't know about the whole excommunicable thing, that I got an inferior education and should be excommunicated?!?!? I may be going a little over the edge, but that's the way it sounds to me!

[i]*What I am about to say does not necessarily mean I voted for Kerry or think he is a better option than Bush - I just think people don't take it into consideration, so I'm tossing some ideas out there!*[/i]

And as far as the voting for Kerry thing goes, Aluigi says:
[quote]we must first stop legalized murder and promote respect for human life from conception till natural death[/quote]

So we must stop legalized murder? What about the death penalty? I know that killing people via capital punishment doesn't kill anywhere near as many people as abortion. I also understand that the babies killed by abortion are innocent whereas those killed by the death penalty are [i]supposedly[/i] guilty. But what is the value of a human life? In my opinion, it is infinite! So what is infinity times 40,000,000? Infinity times a few thousand? Either way, we are destroying infinitely valuable lives! Remeber, we must "promote respect for human life from conception till [b]natural death[/b]" While it is clearly obvious that Kerry would not preven taking life, Bush avidly supports it and seeks to put more and more people on death row every day (especially when he was governor of Texas)! Kerry is not out campaigning for and encouraging people to get abortions...
And one other comment on the argument I often get about people being "guilty" who are on death row. So, maybe they are guilty. Maybe they're not. But if you murder a guilty person, have you given them a chance to repent for what they've done? No. Who knows...that person could become completely repentant for their sin years down the road and we have just taken away their opportunity for salvation....

This only one thing that I strongly think people need to consider. There are more, too. People forget about the in between conception and a natural death sometimes...being pro-life also entails improving the quality of lives. Who's social programs will do a better job of that? Who's education programs will do a better job of that?

This post may rub some people the wrong way, but I feel like if it's necessary to rub people the wrong way in order to point out that abortion is not the only evil in this world, I'm more than willing to do that. I am in no way saying that I don't completely despise abortion or any of the other "5 non-negotiables"...But there is more to life than just those.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]So are you telling me that because my parents chose not to put me in a Catholic school because 1) They may not be the most active Catholics in the world, 2) They couldn't afford it, and 3) They didn't know about the whole excommunicable thing, that I got an inferior education and should be excommunicated?!?!? I may be going a little over the edge, but that's the way it sounds to me!
[/quote]


I am saying that the Church ahs already stated that if you are forbidden to support any form of education not connected with the Catholic Church and that the Idea that such a system of Education is acceptable has been condemned as a heresy, and that promotion of any Heresy can and should carry withit the penelty of excommunication. And yes I am saying that on the whole Public education in all subject areas is inferior to Catholic Education, and therefore on the whole children who attend public school recieve an education inferior to those who attend Catholic school.

[Micheal5403]

[quote]And yes I am saying that on the whole Public education in all subject areas is inferior to Catholic Education, and therefore on the whole children who attend public school recieve an education inferior to those who attend Catholic school.
[/quote]

Are you refering to religious or academic education.