Jews, Christians, And Muslims

[PedroX]

Chrysologus,

The Council of Trent was an infallible council, how can they be right only in context?

The context that changed was the understanding of the word "godless". It used to be recognized that if you didn't believe in God, that you were godless, regardless of how many gods they may believe in, they don't believe in the only one who counts.

Whether or not Allah is a distorted view of Yaweh is not really the most important point. The most important point is that muslims reject God and His Holy Church. I personally view them as heretics, becuase Mohammed took God and twisted Him in to his (Mohammed's) own image.

peace...

[Anna]

You're thinking of a different passage, Anna. Jesus also said at one time, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Oh yeah! Thanks, Dave...I'm having a blonde day... ya know what they say about ignorance being bliss!

Pax Christi. <><

[cmotherofpirl]

In general, anybody who twists God is a heretic.

But there is a difference between twisting the doctrine yourself, or believing what your church, family and culture teaches from birth.

One is formal, one material.

THe unitarians are christians who do not believe God is a trinity, but they do believe in the same God as we do.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the

one God, living and subsisting in Himself, merciful and all-powerful,

the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take

pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as

Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes great pleasure in linking

itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as

God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin

mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition,

they await the day of judgement when God will render their deserts to

all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value

the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving

and fasting."

From the Vatican II Documents

I think that settles it.

[Don John of Austria]

I don't think so at all, which document, almost none of VII is infallable.

[cmotherofpirl]

Wrong.

While every sentence in every document might not be considered infallible , the Second Vatican Council documents contained infallible teachings.

[Don John of Austria]

Little if any new theology was made at VII the only infallable teachings where those that had already been declared in previously infallable settings.

[cmotherofpirl]

Dogma is never new , but explanations can become clearer, more fleshed out, and more precise.

[Don John of Austria]

There is nothing more "precise" than Trent it was crafted specificaly for Precision during the counterreformation. VII is anything but Precise, it is muddy and open to all kinds of misinterpretation namely ANY interretation that contradicts a previous Council. And yes Dogma is often New. try looking up Nicea, or Chalceadon.

[Don John of Austria]

Or would you prefer it is newly revealed or newly defined?

[cmotherofpirl]

MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS ADORE THE ONE GOD

Pope John Paul II

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Like Christians and Jews, Muslims look upon Abraham as a model of submission to God's will and know that in God we find our origin and end

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 5 May, the Holy Father spoke about religious dialogue with Islam. While mentioning the point on which Christians and Muslims most differ, the mystery of the Trinity, the Pope also said that the two traditions "have a long history of study, philosophical and theological reflection, literature and science, which have left their mark on Eastern and Western cultures", and "are called in one spirit of love to defend and always promote human dignity, moral values and freedom". Here is translation of his catechesis, which was the 12th in the series on God the Father and was given in Italian.

1. Continuing our discussion of inter-religious dialogue, today we will reflect on dialogue with Muslims, who "together with us adore the one, merciful God" (Lumen gentium, n. 16; cf. CCC, n. 841). The Church has a high regard for them, convinced that their faith in the transcendent God contributes to building a new human family based on the highest aspirations of the human heart.

Muslims, like Jews and Christians, see the figure of Abraham as a model of unconditional submission to the decrees of God (Nostra aetate, n. 3). Following Abraham's example, the faithful strive to give God his rightful place in their lives as the origin, teacher, guide and ultimate destiny of all beings (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, Message to Muslims for the end of Ramadan, 1417/1997). This human docility and openness to God's will is translated into an attitude of prayer which expresses the existential condition of every person before the Creator.

Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, the one God

Along the path marked out by Abraham in his submission to the divine will, we find his descendant, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Jesus, who is also devoutly invoked by Muslims, especially in popular piety.

2. We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection" (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497). The patrimony of revealed texts in the Bible speaks unanimously of the oneness of God. Jesus himself reaffirms it, making Israel's profession his own: "The Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mk 12:29; cf. Dt 6:4-5). This oneness is also affirmed in the words of praise that spring from the heart of the Apostle Paul: "To the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen'"(1 Tm 1:17).

We know that in the light of the full Revelation in Christ, this mysterious oneness cannot be reduced to a numerical unity. The Christian mystery leads us to contemplate in God's substantial unity the persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: each possesses the divine substance whole and indivisible, but each is distinct from the other by virtue of their reciprocal relations.

3. Their relations in no way compromise the oneness of God, as the Fourth Lateran Council explains (1215): "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.... It does not generate, is not begotten and does not proceed" (DS 804). The Christian doctrine on the Trinity, confirmed by the Councils, explicitly rejects any form of "tritheism" or "polytheism". In this sense, i.e., with reference to the one divine substance, there is significant correspondence between Christianity and Islam.

However, this correspondence must not let us forget the difference between the two religions. We know that the unity of God is expressed in the mystery of the three divine Persons. inDouche, since he is Love (cf. 1 Jn 4:8), God has always been a Father who gives his whole self in begetting the Son, and both are united in a communion of love which is the Holy Spirit. This distinction and compenetration (perichoresis) of the three divine Persons is not something added to their unity but is its most profound and characteristic expression.

Christians and Muslims must strive for peace and justice

On the other hand, we should not forget that the Trinitarian monotheism distinctive of Christianity is a mystery inaccessible to human reason, which is nevertheless called to accept the revelation of God's inmost nature (cf. CCC, n. 237).

4. Interreligious dialogue which leads to a deeper knowledge and esteem for others is a great sign of hope (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, Message to Muslims for the end of Ramadan, 1418/1998). The Christian and Muslim traditions both have a long history of study, philosophical and theological reflection, literature and science, which have left their mark on Eastern and Western cultures. The worship of the one God, Creator of all, encourages us to increase our knowledge of one another in the future.

In today's world where God is tragically forgotten, Christians and Muslims are called in one spirit of love to defend and always promote human dignity, moral values and freedom. The common pilgrimage to eternity must be expressed in prayer, fasting and charity, but also in joint efforts for peace and justice, for human advancement and the protection of the environment. By walking together on the path of reconciliation and renouncing in humble submission to the divine will any form of violence as a means of resolving differences, the two religions will be able to offer a sign of hope, radiating in the world the wisdom and mercy of that one God who created and governs the human family.

To the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors the Holy Father said:

I extend a special welcome to the members of the Catholic Biblical Federation who are celebrating the Federation’s 30th anniversary, and I encourage you to do all you can to ensure that the inexhaustible riches of God's word become ever more truly the heart of the prayer and daily lives of Christ's faithful. Upon all the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors, especially those from England, the Philippines, Japan and the United States of America, I invoke the joy and peace of the risen Saviour.

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Taken from:

L'Osservatore Romano

Weekly Edition in English

12 May 1999, page 11

[Adeodatus]

Following on from what others have said...

The belief that Muslims worship the same God as us is not new.

In AD 1076, Pope Gregory VII wrote to Anzir, the Muslim King of Mauritania (North Africa?) who had freed Christian prisoners and promised to liberate others:

'God, the Creator of all, without whom we cannot do or even think anything that is good, has inspired to your heart this act of kindness. He who enlightens all people coming into the world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who desires all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2.4) and none to perish, is well pleased to approve in us most of all that besides loving God, human beings love others, and do not do to others anything they do not want to be done unto themselves (Matthew 7.14). We and you must show in a special way to the other nations an example of this charity, for we believe and confess one God, although in different ways, and praise and worship him daily as the Creator of all ages and the ruler of this world. (...) God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in the present and the future life. And we pray in our heart and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth.'

There you have it. The Church, in the person of the Successor of Peter, has spoken to confirm our faith. Who shall deny it? B)

And besides, it's ridiculous to suggest that Muslims and Jews could possibly be worshipping a different God. There is no different God!!!! There is only the one true living God, and even if non-Christians have a poorer grasp of Him, they still worship Him and Him alone.

It is also unwise and unsafe to pretend that the Second Vatican Council has not made any infallible pronouncements. Some of the Constitutions coming from it are DOGMATIC Constitutions, and hence, infallibly defined. If we believe otherwise then we are saying Christ is a liar when He said about the Church, 'The gates of Hades shall never overcome it'.

PS Muslims do believe that Jesus is the 'Word of God', but they do not believe in His divinity. They misunderstand our belief in the Trinity to mean that Jesus and Mary (!) are Gods alongside the Creator. Which is why they reject it. Of course, we'd reject such a ridiculous Trinity too.

[Don John of Austria]

"And besides, it's ridiculous to suggest that Muslims and Jews could possibly be worshipping a different God. There is no different God!!!! There is only the one true living God, and even if non-Christians have a poorer grasp of Him, they still worship Him and Him alone"

This is absurd, I guess the Romans who wished to put Caligula's statue in the Temple were worshiping the one God, as were the Vikings when they sacked churches and launched there ships over virgins( killingthem in a most horrid way) or the Aztecs when they cut out still living human hearts or drowned babies in offering to their gods, PLEASE there are False gods there are demons, many worship that which is not the Lord.

Next did anyone say that the Jews didn't worship the one God? I don't recall that so that is neither here nor there.

is also unwise and unsafe to pretend that the Second Vatican Council has not made any infallible pronouncements. Some of the Constitutions coming from it are DOGMATIC Constitutions, and hence, infallibly defined. If we believe otherwise then we are saying Christ is a liar when He said about the Church, 'The gates of Hades shall never overcome it'."

I am well aware of VII's documents ( I have read them all) Very few are Dogmatic, and those that are must be understood as complimentary to not as above previous councils.

If you would like I will post where the successor of peter said that the muslims where pagans and worship demons, but I really didn't think that was needed, I guess I was wrong.

"

[Don John of Austria]

Here you go this is Urban the second calling for the first crusade at the Council of Clermont:

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."

So there you go the Succesor of Peter saying that the muslims worship demons.

[geetarplayer]

You know what'd be pretty cool? If you went to Heaven and the first thing you saw was Jesus and Mohammad hangin' out together. B)

-Mark

[Don John of Austria]

No, not really.

[Don John of Austria]

thats not to say I don't hope mohommed was saved, I just don't think he was the kind of man that I would like to see "hanging" with the Lord. lets leave that for the martyrs and great saints, most of us are not worthy of such a thing.

[geetarplayer]

thats not to say I don't hope mohommed was saved, I just don't think he was the kind of man that I would like to see "hanging" with the Lord. lets leave that for the martyrs and great saints, most of us are not worthy of such a thing.

What you say upsets me, Don John. I think that all people who go to Heaven will get to meet Jesus face to face, talk with Him and, yes, just hang out with Him. In Heaven, we are able to experience God's love to the fullest. Everyone is worthy of God's love. Why are only the saints worthy of meeting Jesus?

-Mark

[cmotherofpirl]

Nobody is worthy, but if you get to heaven you will BE a Saint.

[cmotherofpirl]

Do you think the Pope was being infallible when he said muslims worshipped demons?