Jews, Christians, And Muslims

[Azriel]

Thanks Mark! I thought that one may have gotten lost.

And Cmom - thank you too.

[M.SIGGA]

Thanks Adeodatus. This was well explained and think I can agree with this.

[PedroX]

First, my apologies for taking so long, but I have been out of town. Sorry.

However, it comes as a great sadness, if little surprise, to see that once again we have degenerated into implying that those who disagree with us are somehow schismatic. No one has "jumped from the barque of Peter." We simply have been debating the merits of two different sets of church documents, none of which are officially infallable. We are quick to accuse the Protestants of a lack of unity, but to me it is small wonder that they are repulsed as they watch us slaughter each other. To imply schism is a grave matter, and should only be done under limited circumstances, not because you happen to disagree with some one.

Azriel, you quoted paragraph 841 of the Catechism. Now, I think that we can all agree that while the Catechism contains infallable teachings, it is not itself an infallable document. Secondly, lets look at the footnotes to this paragraph. There are two sources listed. One is Lumen Gentium, and the other is Nostra Aetate. To my knowledge neither of these documents have been proclaimed infallible. Both of these documents are 50 years old, or less and both APPARENTLY are a redirection of older church statements. Now, I am prepared to accept that my posistion (that Muslims are pagans) if you can show me that these two documents should take precendence over earlier teachings. If, however, you cannot, then I think we have come to a draw. I think that there is room for disagreement on this issue, since we have NO infallable teaching on the subject. Again, if I am wrong I will sumbit to the wisdom of our Holy Mother Church (as I always have, contrary to earlier slander in this thread). Please address the issue, and refrain as much as possible from personal attacks.

peace...

[geetarplayer]

I also think it would be best if we all just called it a draw and continued believing what we believe about this issue.

-Mark

[Chrysologus]

Lumen Gentium was proclaimed by the sacred Council. It must be accepted by all Catholics. Everything in the Catechism is taught by the church and must also be accepted by all Catholics. The notion that a teaching must be dogmatic and final for us to believe it is unacceptable. Muslims worship one God as understood by traditional philosophy and theology. Therefore, they worship the same one God as Christians and Jews.

[cmotherofpirl]

yep

[PedroX]

Very well, I submit. For, that is what is required of us in all current church teaching, dogmatic or not. I was momentarily distracted by agreement/belief, but in the end sumbission/obedience is required. Thank you Chrysologus for your reminder of this.

For all of you who would imply my schismatic status before ascertaining all the facts, I only hope that others would show you more charity than you apparently are willing to give to me.

Aeodatus, Thank you for engaging in a debate that was focused mainly on the issues. You have proven to be an intelligen, respectful debater, and I look forward to such discussions in the future.

peace...

[Azriel]

My dear Pedro -

I hope for one second, as you quoted me in the above, that you do not believe that I was implying you were schismatic. Or that you felt for any second that I wasn't showing any charity.

I sincerely wanted to know why I should or should not believe my catechism, and in all honesty, am always perplexed when folks begin to use church documents to back up their beliefs, rather than the other way around.

I have never called anyone a heretic, or schismatic during my tenure on the board. Nor implied as such. Frankly, I don't know as much about Church history as anyone on this board. And always feel odd jumping in these discussions when I know someone with way more knowledge than me can find all sorts of sources to back them up.

Quite frankly, your comments make me very sad inDouche.

[cmotherofpirl]

what AZ said.

[Adeodatus]

M.Sigga - You're welcome!

PedroX - I have to admit that I really enjoyed debating with you (maybe 'dialoging' is a better word for what we ended up doing). I was impressed and moved by your courtesy, and your willingness to genuinely hear the point I was trying to make, and I hope you thought the same. I look forward to future discussions with you too....maybe even on the same side next time.

Like you I think words like 'heresy', 'schismatic' and 'blasphemy' are really rather heavy words for us to throw around. Of course they are sometimes used correctly, and sometimes need to be used. None of us here could canonically accuse you of heresy or schism, and I hope you don't think any of us would (well, not without hearing all the facts! )

For us in Phorum I think your charitable patience is a good example of how dialog can work. God bless you!

Pax vobiscum.... all of you!

[Chrysologus]

I'm glad I could be of help for a change.

[geetarplayer]

Oh, and here's the answer to the source of my incorrect knowledge of the Crusades: I've just now found out that my history teacher is severely anti-Catholic (even though she teaches at a Catholic school). Let me give an example of her anti-Catholicism: right now she's reading a book about all the corrupt popes in history. For fun. :ph34r: Anywho, she was the one who lectured us about the Crusades. She put a biased spin on it, I suppose. We high schoolers are so gullable.

-Mark

[Paladin D]

Oh, and here's the answer to the source of my incorrect knowledge of the Crusades: I've just now found out that my history teacher is severely anti-Catholic (even though she teaches at a Catholic school). Let me give an example of her anti-Catholicism: right now she's reading a book about all the corrupt popes in history. For fun.  :ph34r: Anywho, she was the one who lectured us about the Crusades. She put a biased spin on it, I suppose. We high schoolers are so gullable.

-Mark

Why don't you report the teacher? Since you are in a Catholic school...

[Chrysologus]

Catholics have done lots of horrible things. There have been several horrible popes. Dante was a Catholic and his epic on hell was fraught with clergy, brothers, cardinals, and popes. The popes just dropped in one right after the other (for being simoniacs). There are cathedral walls that show popes burning in hell! There's nothing anti-Catholic about admitting our mistakes, past and present, but there is something cowardly and arrogant about not.

[Aloysius]

we just always must remember, there were very sinful popes in history but they never screwed with the doctrine.

I remember Fr. MItch Pacwa talkin about when he wanted to become a priest, his dad was all against it and sent him a book about bad popes. He read all through it, told his dad it was a great book and inspired him to realize the Church is guided by the HOly Spirit, otherwise how come these evil men who had the power to change 4 evil it did not change it 4 evil?

i say unto thee, it's cuz Jesus promised that the gates of the netherworld will not prevail. B)

[geetarplayer]

Why don't you report the teacher? Since you are in a Catholic school...

There are several non-Catholic teachers at our school. We even have a Mormon math teacher.

One of our religions teachers (who is Catholic, by the way ) teaches her classes that the Catholic Church is "like a big business, and when we say 'Church', we mean the building, not the people". Our principal is aware of these fallacies that she is teaching, though, and he intends to do something about it.

-Mark

[Paladin D]

I have no idea why Catholic schools higher such teachers.

[Dave]

I have no idea why Catholic schools higher such teachers.

Unfortunately, not many Catholic schools these days are committed to orthodoxy. :(

[cmotherofpirl]

Unfortunately, not many Catholic schools these days are committed to orthodoxy.

well you could just keep pointing out their errors. :)