Closure for the marijuana thread.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 12 2004, 02:29 PM'] P.S. If we legalized, you wouldn't be working on dead bodies of people shot over marijuana deals. The way I see it, that's another argument for legalization. [/quote]
SHENNANIGANS!!!!

I call shennanigans. (A nice way of saying *cough* bs *cough*)




People are shot over alcohol, and because of alcohol all the time. People are shot over cigarettes too. And because they forgot to use their turn signal.

Less people dead is simply not a legitimate argument for the legalization of marijuana. Try again.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Dec 12 2004, 04:27 PM'] SHENNANIGANS!!!!

I call shennanigans. (A nice way of saying *cough* bs *cough*)




People are shot over alcohol, and because of alcohol all the time. People are shot over cigarettes too. And because they forgot to use their turn signal.

Less people dead is simply not a legitimate argument for the legalization of marijuana. Try again. [/quote]
Look, I don't really want to argue the issue in the way you're doing it. Don't tell me that less people dead is not a reason for legalization, prove to me that legalization wouldn't actually mean less people dead. Telling me that less people dead is no reason for legalization is a cyclical argument. I could tell you that all of your reasons for keeping it illegal are not reasons for keeping it illegal.

And calling BS is no valid argument. Prop up your BS with some stats. or at least some logic other than "uh unh".

Why don't you adress the scientific research posted above instead of taking the ONE opinion that I posted.

Just disreguard the post about the death stats. of common drugs, and adress all of the other posts.

Peace,

Tim

[JesusSaves1000s]

Marijuana shouldn't be legalized because I have seen a lot of people get addicted to other drugs through marijuana. Marijuana is just a starter drug for people in high school to get them into things like acid, heroine, and cocaine. Some kid died at my school when I was in the eleventh grade from a heroine overdose. It's not a good feeling when someone your used to seeing in the hallway is lying in a coffin. Whether I personally knew the person or not doesn't matter. I was still effected by it. Another person I knew was an awesome football player, was built because he lived at the gym, and was a good kid. That person got hooked onto ecstacy and cocaine, lost all his muscle mass, and doesn't play football anymore. It's another sad story. Marijuana should never be legalized, and the government should be doing more to prevent people from falling into the false illusion that weed can take away your pain and give you a good time.

[Lil Red]

but that is just your personal experience...that may/may not define the actual FACTS. what i'm getting from cooltuba is actual facts and studies...not opinions and personal experiences.

*going back to lurker status in the debate table*

[Winchester]

Cool,

You can tell if someone is drunk or has even been drinking. It's called common sense. Breathalyzer tests exist only because of lawyers, not because it's the only way you can tell if someone had been drinking or not. The same goes for being high--there are signs, friend, and only confirmed dope heads really think no one smells it or sees the dilated pupils or flacid muscle tone.

If you're going to promote yourself as marijuana guy, learn what fry is,.

You want to defend marijuana, fine.

[JesusSaves1000s]

I don't think he's defending marijuana, he's just giving his own opinion on it.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Dec 12 2004, 07:59 PM'] The same goes for being high--there are signs, friend, and only confirmed dope heads really think no one smells it or sees the dilated pupils or flacid muscle tone.

If you're going to promote yourself as marijuana guy, learn what fry is,.

You want to defend marijuana, fine. [/quote]
So you smelled marijuana, witnessed bloodshot eyes, etc. (marijuana does not, BTW dialate pupils.) I believe you, and I believe those people had smoked marijuana. There is the element of witnessing the signs first hand, but the "marijuana caused x number of accidents" commercials are not using those standards, they are using a standard four panel urinalisys to come up with those stats. The four panel cannot distinguish between someone who is high at the time and someone who has smoked marijuana in the past month. There is in fact no scientific test to determine if someone is high or if they've smoked recently.

BTW, I do not promote myself as the marijuana guy. I don't know the street terms (except I guess pot and weed), and I would never buy it on the street. Drug dealers are not good people, and I'd like to put them out of buisness.

My reasons for defending marijuana are my own; they should not concern you. If they do, however, just know that I don't smoke marijuana, and I think that smoking it in an illegal situation is immoral. BTW, in response to your illegal=immoral (methinks not) thread, if alcohol were to be made illegal, it would be immoral for you to drink. You see, we are called by obidence to follow the laws of man unless they directly conflict with Church teachings. (ex. if a law were passed that abortion was mandatory if you already had two kids, etc.) Then you would be morally obligated to disobey the law, even as far as dying for disobeying. You would be a martyr, of course. Now, if a law were pased saying that alcohol were illegal, while the Church teaches that alcohol is not a sin in moderation, it does not teach that we HAVE to drink alcohol. Since the Church does not teach that drinking alcohol is mandatory, you would be morally obligated to obey the law.

Do you not want to adress the studies I posted earlier?

Peace,

Tim

[cooltuba]

[quote name='JesusSaves1000s' date='Dec 12 2004, 06:25 PM'] Marijuana is just a starter drug for people in high school to get them into things like acid, heroine, and cocaine. [/quote]
This is known as the "gateway" theory and it is, well, wrong. My personal opinion is that because of the legal status of marijuana, people who smoke it are exposed to the harder drugs and get curious and try them. But, that's just my opinion and there is no scientific way to prove that. There is, however, a scientific way to prove that there is no correlation with marijuana use and the use of harder drugs. Here is that proof:

Most users of heroin, LSD and cocaine have used marijuana. However, most marijuana users never use another illegal drug.

Over time, there has been no consistent relationship between the use patterns of various drugs.

Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Main Findings 1990; U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Preliminary Estimates from the 1993 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse.

As marijuana use increased in the 1960s and 1970s, heroin use declined. And, when marijuana use declined in the 1980s, heroin use remained fairly stable.

For the past 20 years, as marijuana use-rates fluctuated, the use of LSD hardly changed at all.

Cocaine use increased in the early 1980s as marijuana use was declining. During the late 1980s, both marijuana and cocaine declined. During the last few years, cocaine use has continued to decline as marijuana use has increased slightly.

In 1994, less than 16% of high school seniors who had ever tried marijuana had ever tried cocaine - the lowest percentage ever recorded.

Source: Johnston, L.D. et al, Monitoring the Future, Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Institute for Social Research (1994).

In short, there is no inevitable relationship between the use of marijuana and other drugs. This fact is supported by data from other countries. In the Netherlands, for example, although marijuana prevalence among young people increased during the past decade, cocaine use decreased - and remains considerably lower than in the United States. Whereas approximately 16% of youthful marijuana users in the U.S. have tried cocaine, the comparable figure for Dutch youth is 1.8 percent.

Source: Cohen, P.D.A., Cannabisgebruikers in Amsterdam, Jaarbeurs Congrescentrum Utrecht (1995)

You know, looking at that last sentance again, I submit that that is at least suggestive, if not proof, that my theory of marijuana users being exposed to other drugs due to the fact that marijuana is illegal. In the US, the percentage of young people who smoke marijuana and then try cocaine is 16%, in the Netherlands, where they designed their drug policy to seperate marijuana users from the hard drugs, the percentage of young people who tried cocaine is 1.8%. Those numbers are different enough to be at least suggestive, you can't deny that.

Peace,

Tim

Edited December 13, 2004 by cooltuba

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Dec 12 2004, 07:26 PM'] but that is just your personal experience...that may/may not define the actual FACTS. what i'm getting from cooltuba is actual facts and studies...not opinions and personal experiences. [/quote]
Thank you; I couldn't have said it better myself.

On a personal note, in your situation (dealing with teens and other youh), I would definately teach that marijuana is immoral. The same way that I do not contradict my Pastor when he teaches the youth group that tattos are immoral. When dealing with impressionable minds, it is better to err on the side of caution, as youth has a way of taking a mile when an inch is given. To tell them that the only reason marijuana is immoral is that it is illegal would lead to the rationalization "Well, I exceed the speed limit, and that's illegal, so why shouldn't I smoke marijuana?" The same way that teaching tattoos are not immoral would lead to kids getting tattoos of foolish things that they would regret later in life. I wouldn't propogate the myths of the health risks of marijuana, though, because they can see straight through them, and it will cast doubt on everything else you teach them.

BTW, I got a new tattoo last Saturday. My digital cam's on the fritz, and when it gets working again, I'll be sure and post some pics for you. It's a cross drawn around the Sacred Heart tattoo that I already had. I'd always wanted a Crucifix tattoo, but the level of detail required would mean that it would have to be an enormous tattoo. I was thinking one day, and the thought popped in my head that if I drew a cross around the Sacred Heart, it would be a Crucifix, as the Sacred Heart is a symbol of Jesus. It's bigger than I'd imagined, but i love it.

Peace,

Tim

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 12 2004, 10:15 PM'] Thank you; I couldn't have said it better myself.

On a personal note, in your situation (dealing with teens and other youh), I would definately teach that marijuana is immoral. The same way that I do not contradict my Pastor when he teaches the youth group that tattos are immoral. When dealing with impressionable minds, it is better to err on the side of caution, as youth has a way of taking a mile when an inch is given. To tell them that the only reason marijuana is immoral is that it is illegal would lead to the rationalization "Well, I exceed the speed limit, and that's illegal, so why shouldn't I smoke marijuana?" The same way that teaching tattoos are not immoral would lead to kids getting tattoos of foolish things that they would regret later in life. I wouldn't propogate the myths of the health risks of marijuana, though, because they can see straight through them, and it will cast doubt on everything else you teach them.

BTW, I got a new tattoo last Saturday. My digital cam's on the fritz, and when it gets working again, I'll be sure and post some pics for you. It's a cross drawn around the Sacred Heart tattoo that I already had. I'd always wanted a Crucifix tattoo, but the level of detail required would mean that it would have to be an enormous tattoo. I was thinking one day, and the thought popped in my head that if I drew a cross around the Sacred Heart, it would be a Crucifix, as the Sacred Heart is a symbol of Jesus. It's bigger than I'd imagined, but i love it.

Peace,

Tim [/quote]
thanks...i had a youth present a hypothetical situation, and i honestly didn't know what to say...now i do...

btw, your tat sounds sweet, can't wait to see it...i have three tats, but i want to either get the Sacred Heart of Jesus or the Immaculate Heart of Mary. or both.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Dec 13 2004, 12:27 AM'] thanks...i had a youth present a hypothetical situation, and i honestly didn't know what to say...now i do...

btw, your tat sounds sweet, can't wait to see it...i have three tats, but i want to either get the Sacred Heart of Jesus or the Immaculate Heart of Mary. or both. [/quote]
Yes, I remember you have tattoos, (that's why I mentioned mine) I think we discussed it in an earlier thread about tattoos.

I'd like to eventually get the Immaculate Heart of Mary on my left calf (mirroring the Sacred Heart of Jesus on my right calf). The Cross around the Sacred Heart took about three hours, so I'm good for a while. That was probably the most amount of pain I've ever felt.

Glad I could help with your situation.

Peace,

Tim

[Guest]

willie nelson smokes
i mean, come on

" im never smoken weed with willie again "

lol i dont like country music, although I like that song...I cant remember who sings it.....

[Winchester]

We are called to obey just laws. Governments do not enjoy unlimited rights to ban and not ban activities.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Dec 13 2004, 01:35 AM'] We are called to obey just laws. Governments do not enjoy unlimited rights to ban and not ban activities. [/quote]
Yes, they do. That's why marijuana is banned. Using your logic, it would be ok to smoke marijuana whenever I feel like it because I don't think it's a just law.

We cannot buck authority in the name of God unless it is a situation that directly defies the Will of God.

Peace,

Tim

[Dreamweaver]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Dec 13 2004, 01:35 AM'] We are called to obey just laws. Governments do not enjoy unlimited rights to ban and not ban activities. [/quote]
What exactly is a just law? Someone may decide they should murder someone for saying something bad about them. There's also a large group of people that are wanting to lower the age of consent for minors. Or, maybe I feel the drinking age isn't just, that I should let a 6 year old drink.

We need to determine what the Church's stance of marijuana use is to determine if it is sinful or not (if the prohibition on MJ was overturned for whatever reason).

How many prohibitory laws are unjust? Obviously if it was something along the lines of "one cannot go to church", it is unjust and we musn't obey the government over that particular law.

But if it is something minor, such as "one cannot do jumping jacks on Tuesday mornings", how could it really be called unjust? Silly, definately, but not really unjust.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Dreamweaver' date='Dec 13 2004, 10:37 AM']We need to determine what the Church's stance of marijuana use is to determine if it is sinful or not (if the prohibition on MJ was overturned for whatever reason).
[/quote]
I agree. With that being said, the topic has been adressed in the Q&A forum. BLAZEr answered the question, and since I am not able to respond to that thread my response shall go here:

BLAZEr declared that since marijuana causes "cognitive deficits", then it hinders your ability to make moral choices, therefore it is always and forever immoral.

When I was reading the post, I recognized some of the language as coming from a NIDA (National Institute for Drug Awareness) study I've read. While the NIDA is quite biased, and I don't trust their research, for the time being we'll assume all of their research is beyond reproach and factual to the highest degree. Since we're assuming it's true, I can use their research as well. In volume 18, number 5 (dec. 2003) NIDA breaks down each of the "cognitive deficits" it has found that marijuana causes, and published charts showing the performance of heavy marijuana smokers (94 joints per week), light marijuana smokers (10 joints per week), and a control group. The heavy smokers showed cognitive deficits in the areas of verbal memory, visual memory, psychomotor speed, and manual dexterity. The light smokers (which I would still consider heavy, daily is way too much; much less more than one joint a day) showed no impairment compared to the controls.

Now, did BLAZEr address the fact that light marijuana smokers show no impairment? No. Did he even have a decent understanding of what cognitive deficits actually are in the context that the term was being used? No. Cognitive deficits do not affect your ability to make a moral decision any more than forgetting were you left your keys hinders your ability to make a moral decision. He simply read the words, applied the dictionary definition to the word cognitive, and went to town. The error was that what the NIDA refers to as cognitive is not the textbook definition. We would call it short term memory loss and decreased motor skills. The other error was quoting a study that gave 94 joints a week to ONE person. That's 13 joints a day, people!!!! How does that research apply to the person who smokes occasionaly? That's like taking the effects of alcoholism and telling someone if they drink ANY alcohol, they will experience those effects.

One of the substances I can think of that hinders inhibitions, which can hinder your ability to make moral decisions is alcohol. I've known many a pot smoker, and I've never heard "Man, I got so stoned last night that I had sex with some chick I don't even know." I have heard people say that about alcohol, though.

*slaps his own hand* Disreguard that last paragraph. Personal experience doesn't count.

Peace,

Tim
*edit* the "Personal experience" I was referring to was having heard people say that, not having done it myself. I was re-reading the post, and that didn't sound so good.

Edited December 13, 2004 by cooltuba

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Dec 13 2004, 12:53 AM'] willie nelson smokes
i mean, come on

" im never smoken weed with willie again "

lol i dont like country music, although I like that song...I cant remember who sings it..... [/quote]
Honestly, what was the point of that post? Willie Nelson also doesn't pay his taxes; should we all stop paying taxes?

[Guest]

ha i was just jokeing around
i remember who it was, its Toby Keith

and Willy Nelson is the mannnnnnnn
Him and Jimmy Carter are boys
they had a awsome special on cmt about the two
Willies awsome

Edited December 13, 2004 by Guest

[jasJis]

I apologize cooltuba, for taking so long to reply. I am almost done with my response. You will find it interesting, scientific, reasonable, and WELL documented. Truthfully, there are serious flaws in your reasoning, which I will point out, but will also provide scientific evidence of the harmful effects of marijuana. For example, the 'Gateway Effect' is a reality. Almost 100% of other hard drug users, used marijuana first. One simply has to put it in the same perspective. One also has to consider the population in sub-sets that are prone to certain behaviours. Once 100% percent of a sub-set is incorporated, one has to search all other sets to add members to the original sub-set. For example, if all adults smoked ciggarettes, you would have 100% of the adults who were genetically susceptible to get cancer and 100% of the adults who could smoke 60 years and not get cancer. But, if young people started smoking before they were adults, you would add the sub-set of adults who were susceptible to cancer only if they smoked 65+ years and started at pre-adolescence.

n-e-ways. I should finish my response tonight. As an interesting note, I will include Emergency Doctor statistics for patients who came in for marijuana caused problems. These are just the instances where the people either willingly told they were there for pot, or circumstances actually caused testing for marijuana (which are very, very few because of the characteristics of marijuana). Though nobody has probably died from THC overdose, many, many people have died and been injured BECAUSE they were under the influence of marijuana. This is statistical fact and is quite logical. Just consider the effects of THC which makes us want to be high and apply them in the wrong circumstance. Just like alochol overdose is rare, many people are killed or injured while under the influence of alchohol.

More to come later...

[JesusSaves1000s]

We all know that the government lets the drugs into the country because it brings in a lot of money. It's like what England did in Hong Kong. The British got 1/3 of the Chinese addicted to opium and pressed communism on them. Our laws are being taken away while our government is letting us puff the weed.