Closure for the marijuana thread.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 15 2004, 02:05 AM'] I don't know, but apparently they've been pm'ed or it's been reported using the "report" button.  *says a Hail Mary for non-closure* [/quote]
I never said that this particular thread has been reported (thats not to say that no one has expressed concerns to other mods in private), just that this happens and when we mods have to edit/delete/close things we get alot of flack and no one else realizes whats going on behind the scenes. I don't plan on closing the thread (not yet anyway, if it becomes a problem then I will), I know jasJis has been working on a response for a couple days now and I think he at least deserves to be able to post it.

Edited December 15, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[cooltuba]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Dec 15 2004, 01:12 AM'] I don't plan on closing the thread (not yet anyway, if it becomes a problem then I will), I know jasJis has been working on a response for a couple days now and I think he at least deserves to be able to post it. [/quote]
Thanks. My prayers have been answered!

--Tim

[cooltuba]

BTW... Iceprincess, do you have a personal opinion on marijuana? Do you see what I'm trying to say? I just don't want to come across as trying to justify illegal drug use. I really think that we could do so much more good as Catholics who meet someone who has a marijuana problem if we focus on the truth rather than tell them lies they know are lies (from personal experience). When a marijuana user hears the gateway argument and the mutagen argument and all of the other arguements, they instantly stop listening to you.

Thanks again.

Edited December 15, 2004 by cooltuba

[IcePrincessKRS]

My personal opinion... well, I'm not as studied on the topic as some people, but my opinion is that it should stay illegal. I think the harm it causes outweighs any good it might cause (which, honestly, I'm skeptical about). My only experience is with people I know who have used the stuff and the way they are when using it... it ain't pretty. Even if they aren't high all the time, even if its "only" 1 joint, I think one is one too many.

[Oik]

I disagree with your statistics.

Results on the effects of marijuana in conjuction with deaths are inconclusive.
Since marijuana affects the body differently, its incorrect to judge it by the same standards as other drugs.

Marijuana impairs motor functions.

Marijuana causes (can stimulate the growth of) cancer.

Personally, I don't want to have to deal with Second hand smoke and the contact high of pot.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Oik

[cooltuba]

[quote]
My personal opinion... well, I'm not as studied on the topic as some people, but my opinion is that it should stay illegal. I think the harm it causes outweighs any good it might cause (which, honestly, I'm skeptical about). My only experience is with people I know who have used the stuff and the way they are when using it... it ain't pretty. Even if they aren't high all the time, even if its "only" 1 joint, I think one is one too many.[/quote]

Thanks. Just curious. That's what I figured.

Peace,

Tim

Edited December 15, 2004 by cooltuba

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Oik' date='Dec 15 2004, 01:48 AM'] Results on the effects of marijuana in conjuction with deaths are inconclusive.
Since marijuana affects the body differently, its incorrect to judge it by the same standards as other drugs.

Marijuana impairs motor functions.

Marijuana causes (can stimulate the growth of) cancer.

Personally, I don't want to have to deal with Second hand smoke and the contact high of pot. [/quote]
No argument here that marijuana impairs motor functions. To the degree of alcohol? No.

Let's see the studies showing marijuana causing or promoting cancer. I can tell you that smoked marijuana has the same cancer-causing effect of cigarettes, but i've never heard the stimulation of growth of cancer argument. I'd love to see the research. *edit* [b]Especially[/b] since marijuana is perscribed (where legal) to cancer patients. */edit*

If the US adopted similar laws as the Netherlands, the only way you'd be exposed to marijuana smoke is if you went into a place was exclusively for marijuana smoking (like a bar, but with marijuana instead of alcohol). Easy enough to avoid.

How does marijuana affect the body differently? All drugs (read: ALL) bind to receptors in various parts of the body (mostly the brain).

I agree that stats on death rates and marijuana are inconclusive, and I've said so, and said to disreguard them in other posts. I think I'll go back and edit that post, since it's the ONE opinion I've posted, and everyone wants to latch on to that one and disreguard the pages of scientific research that I've posted.

Peace,

Tim

Edited December 15, 2004 by cooltuba

[Oik]

I wish industrial hemp was legal.

I don't see why recreational use of marijuana is good.

I don't see what purpose it would serve.

Cigrette/Cigar smoking is on the decline, and marijuana would have the same effects in that respect, so why legalise it?

Why even decriminalise it?

The netherlands are a bad example to compare anything to.
Legalised distitution!

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Oik' date='Dec 15 2004, 02:13 AM'] I wish industrial hemp was legal.

I don't see why recreational use of marijuana is good.

I don't see what purpose it would serve.

Cigrette/Cigar smoking is on the decline, and marijuana would have the same effects in that respect, so why legalise it?

Why even decriminalise it?

The netherlands are a bad example to compare anything to.
Legalised distitution! [/quote]
I didn't say recreation use was GOOD, just not as harmful as we're led to believe.

It would keep many people who use it (and it only) out of jail; they don't belong there. It would keep my tax dollars from being spent on incarcerating them. It would be one less way for drug dealers to make money (if you think people would still buy from an illegal source when there is a legal, cheaper source you're wrong), and it would seperate the marijuana users from the hard drug market. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head without referencing any material.

Yes, the Netherlands has legal prostitution; so does the US (Nevada). I'm not pointing to that law, though. Just because a country got one thing wrong doesn't mean that all of their laws are wrong. We allow the murder of innocent babies, does that mean all of our laws are wrong?

Peace,

Tim

BTW, industrial hemp is legal. They use male marijuana plants (which produce less THC in all strains), and they've bred strains that produce no THC. You can find a variety of hemp products at stores like Claire's; I believe they make bracelets and such out of it.

[Oik]

You can own hemp, but you cannot grow it in the U.S.

The marijuana argument is a moot one. It is illegal and will stay illegal and I'm glad. If the effects it has aren't proven thru all the literature, there will never be a good enough answer for those who endorse it (I'm not saying this is you!)

There are so many testimonies of the things pot have done to destroy society. I suppose you could argue that its just the individual, but I (and a lot of other Americans) just don't see it that way.

The people against it have pleaded thier points and educated.

The people for it have pleaded thier points and educated.

The bottom line, it's a sin. Catholics should know this.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Oik

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Oik' date='Dec 15 2004, 02:33 AM'] You can own hemp, but you cannot grow it in the U.S.

The marijuana argument is a moot one. It is illegal and will stay illegal and I'm glad. If the effects it has aren't proven thru all the literature, there will never be a good enough answer for those who endorse it (I'm not saying this is you!)

There are so many testimonies of the things pot have done to destroy society. I suppose you could argue that its just the individual, but I (and a lot of other Americans) just don't see it that way.

The people against it have pleaded thier points and educated.

The people for it have pleaded thier points and educated.

The bottom line, it's a sin. Catholics should know this. [/quote]
I respect your opinion. I disagree, but I respect your opinion.

Peace,

Tim

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Oik' date='Dec 15 2004, 01:48 AM'] Since marijuana affects the body differently, its incorrect to judge it by the same standards as other drugs.

[/quote]
How, exactly, is it different?

[quote]Marijuana causes (can stimulate the growth of) cancer. [/quote]

You mean it contains carcinogens when smoked, correct? Just as does tobacco?

[quote]Personally, I don't want to have to deal with Second hand smoke and the contact high of pot.[/quote]

Since it can be ingested (and doing so is less harmful than smoking) you wouldn't necessarily have to deal with such things.

[quote]There are so many testimonies of the things pot have done to destroy society.[/quote]

The questions that generally arise are these:

1) Is it purely anecdotal evidence with no scientific basis?
2) Is the damage actually done by marijuana use or by the culture that has grown around it because of its illegality?

[quote]The bottom line, it's a sin. Catholics should know this. [/quote]

I thought this was under debate. If alcohol and tobacco aren't sinful, why is marijuana?

[cooltuba]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 15 2004, 11:05 AM'] How, exactly, is it different?
You mean it contains carcinogens when smoked, correct? Just as does tobacco?
Since it can be ingested (and doing so is less harmful than smoking) you wouldn't necessarily have to deal with such things.
The questions that generally arise are these:
1) Is it purely anecdotal evidence with no scientific basis?
2) Is the damage actually done by marijuana use or by the culture that has grown around it because of its illegality?
I thought this was under debate. If alcohol and tobacco aren't sinful, why is marijuana? [/quote]
That person (Oik) isn't going to answer your questions. I asked the same questions (or similar), and I got a "Marijuana is bad...just because I say so" response. Oik isn't interested in debating the issue, so just agree to disagree and move on.

[Oik]

The realit is that the advocates of pot don't like the answers they are given, it's not that there is a lack of proof.

The Church has spoken on marijuana and drugs, if you want the facts, there are a lot of resources available.

Its not a matter of agree to disagree. Its a matter that the Church teaches it is a sin to smoke Pot for recreational use.

The Church teaches a lot of things are sinful and they have to reasoning to back it up.

The real question is, are advocates of pot willing to be open to the Truth?

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Oik' date='Dec 15 2004, 12:31 PM'] The realit is that the advocates of pot don't like the answers they are given, it's not that there is a lack of proof.

The Church has spoken on marijuana and drugs, if you want the facts, there are a lot of resources available.

Its not a matter of agree to disagree. Its a matter that the Church teaches it is a sin to smoke Pot for recreational use.

The Church teaches a lot of things are sinful and they have to reasoning to back it up.

The real question is, are advocates of pot willing to be open to the Truth? [/quote]
The CCC teaches that illegal drugs are immoral and scandalous. Marijuana is never specifically addressed.

I am open to Truth. I searched extensively for Church teachings on marijuana specifically, and they're not out there.

Find me an OFFICIAL Church teaching that smoking marijuana in moderate amounts is sinful, and I'll agree. I've looked extensively, and I've not been able to find a teaching other than all illegal drugs are immoral and scandalous because of their illegality.

Thanks,

Tim

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 15 2004, 01:40 PM'] The CCC teaches that illegal drugs are immoral and scandalous. Marijuana is never specifically addressed.

I am open to Truth. I searched extensively for Church teachings on marijuana specifically, and they're not out there.

Find me an OFFICIAL Church teaching that smoking marijuana in moderate amounts is sinful, and I'll agree. I've looked extensively, and I've not been able to find a teaching other than all illegal drugs are immoral and scandalous because of their illegality.

Thanks,

Tim [/quote]
It doesn't need to address marijuana specifically because pot IS illegal. Does the CCC need to list every type of drug just so we know what we can and can't use? Nope. Find an official Church teaching that says smoking pot in moderation isn't sinful. Its been stated by the Church, officially, that illegal drugs are immoral, that should be proof enough.

[drewmeister2]

Please go to this link on PhatMass: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24549"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24549[/url]. God bless!

[cooltuba]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Dec 15 2004, 02:30 PM'] It doesn't need to address marijuana specifically because pot IS illegal. Does the CCC need to list every type of drug just so we know what we can and can't use? Nope. Find an official Church teaching that says smoking pot in moderation isn't sinful. Its been stated by the Church, officially, that illegal drugs are immoral, that should be proof enough. [/quote]
But what about places where it is not illegal? My point was that the CCC states that it is immoral and scandalous because of the illegality of it, not that the specific drugs in question would be immoral if not illegal. There is no Church teaching that marijuana is immoral in modest amounts in legal circumstances.

Just as there is no teaching that marijuana is moral in modest amounts in legal circumstances.

--Tim

Edited December 15, 2004 by cooltuba

[cooltuba]

[quote name='drewmeister2' date='Dec 15 2004, 03:09 PM'] Please go to this link on PhatMass: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24549"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24549[/url]. God bless! [/quote]
I've been there, read the argument, and disagreed. It's been addressed already in this thread. Here's a copy/paste from my post about it:

BLAZEr declared that since marijuana causes "cognitive deficits", then it hinders your ability to make moral choices, therefore it is always and forever immoral.

When I was reading the post, I recognized some of the language as coming from a NIDA (National Institute for Drug Awareness) study I've read. While the NIDA is quite biased, and I don't trust their research, for the time being we'll assume all of their research is beyond reproach and factual to the highest degree. Since we're assuming it's true, I can use their research as well. In volume 18, number 5 (dec. 2003) NIDA breaks down each of the "cognitive deficits" it has found that marijuana causes, and published charts showing the performance of heavy marijuana smokers (94 joints per week), light marijuana smokers (10 joints per week), and a control group. The heavy smokers showed cognitive deficits in the areas of verbal memory, visual memory, psychomotor speed, and manual dexterity. The light smokers (which I would still consider heavy, daily is way too much; much less more than one joint a day) showed no impairment compared to the controls.

Now, did BLAZEr address the fact that light marijuana smokers show no impairment? No. Did he even have a decent understanding of what cognitive deficits actually are in the context that the term was being used? No. Cognitive deficits do not affect your ability to make a moral decision any more than forgetting were you left your keys hinders your ability to make a moral decision. He simply read the words, applied the dictionary definition to the word cognitive, and went to town. The error was that what the NIDA refers to as cognitive is not the textbook definition. We would call it short term memory loss and decreased motor skills. The other error was quoting a study that gave 94 joints a week to ONE person. That's 13 joints a day, people!!!! How does that research apply to the person who smokes occasionaly? That's like taking the effects of alcoholism and telling someone if they drink ANY alcohol, they will experience those effects.

One of the substances I can think of that hinders inhibitions, which can hinder your ability to make moral decisions is alcohol. I've known many a pot smoker, and I've never heard "Man, I got so stoned last night that I had sex with some chick I don't even know." I have heard people say that about alcohol, though.

*slaps his own hand* Disreguard that last paragraph. Personal experience doesn't count.

Peace,

Tim
*edit* the "Personal experience" I was referring to was having heard people say that, not having done it myself. I was re-reading the post, and that didn't sound so good.

[IcePrincessKRS]

The CCC paragraph 2291 states MORAL LAW. You will probably continue to disagree (and you're entitled to your opinion) but I don't think your arguments hold water in the face of the traditions and teachings of the Church.

[quote]CCC 2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices [b]gravely contrary to the moral law.[/b][/quote]

[quote]Marijuana usage
Question from Bob Mandala on 12-14-2000: 
I have a couple of questions regarding the Church's teaching on marijuana usage. Is it considered a sin to use marijuana at all times? Or is it just when people "abuse" it (merely to 'get high'). Is medical use of it a sin as well? Also, I know that it is alright to drink alcohol on a limited basis (not getting drunk, of course). So, if a person were to use marijuana in the same way as many people use alcohol, would that be acceptable? That is, using only a little, as people will have a couple of beers, or a glass of wine with dinner. Please enlighten me on this, I am rather confused on these teachings, as they seem to be contradictory, at least to me.
Thank you, and God bless.

Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on 12-15-2000: 
The Catechism clearly states that the use of drugs, other than for strictly therapeutic purposes, is morally unacceptable. (Paragraph 2291). [/quote]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=351092&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=marijuana&pgnu=1&groupnum=0"]http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...nu=1&groupnum=0[/url]

[quote]smoking marijuana
Question from Lynn Sheer on 05-29-2001: 
At a conference I heard that smoking marijuana was a mortal sin. On talking to my priest about this issue, he said it was ok to smoke 1 or 2 marijuana cigarettes a day and it was not a sin. 
Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on 05-29-2001: 
I cannot understand how any priest could possibly tell you such a thing. Paragraph 2291 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church states quite clearly that the use of drugs is a serious evil. Add to this the fact that the use marijuana is a violation of the civil law, and the civil law, in this case in harmony with the natural law, is binding on the conscience.  [/quote]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=368658&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=marijuana&pgnu=1&groupnum=0"]http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...nu=1&groupnum=0[/url]

Edited December 15, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS