Christianity = Sexism?

[Paladin D]

Someone used this passage to show that modern-day Christianity is sexist:

[quote name='"1 Timothy 2"']9 Similarly, (too,) women should adorn themselves with proper conduct, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes,
10 but rather, as befits women who profess reverence for God, with good deeds.
11 A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.
15 But she will be saved through motherhood, provided women persevere in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.[/quote]

I know some of the answers to some, but not all of them.

[Socrates]

Paladin, buddy, what's up with you these days?

First a thread (which I at first assumed was an ironic commentary) saying how you hated being a man, now you're worrying about Christianity being "sexist."

Not to sound like one of the Markich bros here, but of course true Christianity is "sexist," in the sense of not conforming to feminism.

Women should serve God by being subservient to men, rather than seeking after personal gain and power. (The true Christian understands that to be subservient is not degrading. It is by being subservient to God that we gain glory.)

Do you have a rad feminazi girlfriend giving you carp or something? Take pride in being a man. Be a gentleman. Don't let yourself be brought down by this nonsense.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 10 2004, 09:11 PM'] Paladin, buddy, what's up with you these days?

First a thread (which I at first assumed was an ironic commentary) saying how you hated being a man, now you're worrying about Christianity being "sexist."

Not to sound like one of the Markich bros here, but of course true Christianity is "sexist," in the sense of not conforming to feminism.

Women should serve God by being subservient to men, rather than seeking after personal gain and power.  (The true Christian understands that to be subservient is not degrading.  It is by being subservient to God that we gain glory.)

Do you have a rad feminazi girlfriend giving you carp or something?  Take pride in being a man.  Be a gentleman.  Don't let yourself be brought down by this nonsense. [/quote]
I sort of wished I had a girlfriend.

[Socrates]

Don't worry about it. I don't have a girlfriend either, and I'm old!
(And beleive me, I know from experience there are some women you are just better off having nothing to do with!)

Any real woman will want a real man, who's comfortable with and proud of his masculinity! They don't want "sensitive guys" or guys who are apologetic about being a man.

(I don't know your situation, and I don't mean to put you down - I just thought I'd give you some honest advice - not that I'm the one to give advice with woman problems. It seems you're having some real problems with something.)

God bless,

Greg

[Guest]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 10 2004, 08:34 PM']
(And beleive me, I know from experience there are some women you are just better off having nothing to do with!)

[/quote]
isnt that the truth

[InHisHands381]

Some people will also use this passage to show that women are inferior:

[quote]Eph 5:22
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. [/quote]

But those same people often forget to read on:

[quote]23
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
24
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
25
[b]Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her[/b] [/quote]

I know this doesn't specifically answer your question but my advice would be check the context of the scripture they have pointed out...there may be more surrounding it that refutes this "sexist mentality" to an extent. Also check out the context of when that particular book was written and to whom it was written...sometimes that helps explain things.

[Mary's Knight, La]

Paladin,

Christopher West explains some of why saint paul said this when he discusses the punishment to the woman in genesis in his talk on TOTB.

when you look at men and women after the fall you see man tries to objectify woman and use her, hence his admonition to love rather than use. the woman's response to this is to close herself entirely and keep all interaction with man on her own terms even after marriage. hence the admonition to her that their can be only one head in a body, and God chose that role for man.

for some more on that look at Wild at Heart, I can't remember who the author is but it talks alot about the relationship between woman and man.

Edited December 11, 2004 by Mary's Knight, La

[Phatmasser777]

Who is he addressing it to?

This is like 1 Cor 11 about women being subject to men. But if you study it, this is a reference ONLY to the Corinthians, not everyone else, and it was directed due to the lack of morality their.

Same might apply for this.

Always check WHO ITS BEING PUT TO. Not everything in the Bible is universal, as Corinthians shows us.

[RandomProddy]

"Matrimony" means "the protection of the mother".

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 10 2004, 08:34 PM'] Any real woman will want a real man, who's comfortable with and proud of his masculinity! They don't want "sensitive guys" or guys who are apologetic about being a man. [/quote]
You throw out the terms "real" woman and "real" man as though you get to decide who is which. That is certainly sexist. So, if a male is sensitive he isn't a "real" man? <Expletive deleted>, I had no idea that my father and brothers weren't real men. Fruz you and your narrow definitions of "real" gender.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='InHisHands381' date='Dec 10 2004, 09:20 PM'] Some people will also use this passage to show that women are inferior:



But those same people often forget to read on:



I know this doesn't specifically answer your question but my advice would be check the context of the scripture they have pointed out...there may be more surrounding it that refutes this "sexist mentality" to an extent. Also check out the context of when that particular book was written and to whom it was written...sometimes that helps explain things. [/quote]
Strange, that passage doesn't tell men to do anything but love their wives. I don't see how that makes telling women to be subservient any better.

As to Socrates' statement:

[quote]The true Christian understands that to be subservient is not degrading.[/quote]

How can it not be degrading to be inferior?

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 13 2004, 12:55 PM'] As to Socrates' statement:

"The true Christian understands that to be subservient is not degrading."

How can it not be degrading to be inferior? [/quote]
I believe he meant: "The 'true' Christian WOMAN understands that to be subservient is not degrading." Of course if it was males that had to be, theyd be holy hell to pay

[Don John of Austria]

No he ment the true Christian, the Pope after all is the servent of the servents of God, what is more subserviant than that.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 13 2004, 01:16 PM'] No he ment the true Christian, the Pope after all is the servent of the servents of God, what is more subserviant than that. [/quote]
The pope is the servant of the servant of god? That means what, exactly? And please note that servant has a different meaning than subservient.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]The pope is the servant of the servant of god? That means what, exactly? And please note that servant has a different meaning than subservient. [/quote]

Actually they have the same meaning

[quote]Subordinate in capacity or function.
Obsequious; [color=red]servile[/color].
Useful as a means or an instrument; serving to promote an end.

[/quote]

OR
[quote]adj 1: compliant and obedient to authority; "editors and journalists who express opinions in print that are opposed to the interests of the rich are dismissed and replaced by subservient ones"-G. B. Shaw 2: abjectly submissive; characteristic of a slave or servant; "slavish devotion to her job ruled her life"; "a slavish yes-man to the party bosses"- S.H.Adams; "she has become submissive and subservient" [syn: slavish, submissive]
[/quote]

[quote]ser·vile    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sûrvl, -vl)
adj.
Abjectly submissive; slavish.

Of or suitable to a slave or servant.
Of or relating to servitude or forced labor.
[/quote]

[quote]ser·vant    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sûrvnt)
n.
One who is privately employed to perform domestic services.
One who is publicly employed to perform services, as for a government.
One who expresses submission, recognizance, or debt to another: your obedient servant.
Main Entry: ser·vant
Function: noun
: a person who serves others: as a : an individual who performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer b : a person in the employ and subject to the direction or control of an individual or company —see also RESPONDEAT SUPERIOR —compare AGENT, MASTER


[/quote]

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 13 2004, 12:55 PM'] Strange, that passage doesn't tell men to do anything but love their wives. [/quote]
Perhaps you missed the part of the Bible where Christ died for love of us. That's the kind of love a man must give his wife: the love that says 'i will do anything for your protection, i will not even shie away from suffering and death for your sake.'

A guy that will die to *protect* his wife is *not* gonna mistreat her. It would be a contradiction.

Peace,
Joe

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 13 2004, 01:33 PM']
Actually they have the same meaning



OR




[/quote]
[url="http://www.m-w.com"]Merriam-Webster[/url] says:

Subservient:
1 : serving to promote some end
2 : useful in an inferior capacity : SUBORDINATE
3 : obsequiously submissive : TRUCKLING

Servant:
: one that serves others <a public servant>; especially : one that performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer

[url="http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/subservient?view=uk"]Compact Oxford English Dictionary[/url] says:

Subservient:
1 prepared to obey others unquestioningly; obsequious.
2 less important; subordinate.

Servant:
1 a person employed to perform domestic duties in a household or as a personal attendant.
2 a person regarded as providing support or service for an organization or person: a government servant.

I trust both of these sources, but to cover the word servile:

M-W
Servile:
1 : of or befitting a slave or a menial position
2 : meanly or cravenly submissive : ABJECT

COED
Servile:
1 excessively willing to serve or please others.
2 of or characteristic of a slave or slaves.

Still demeaning. And you didn't answer my question. What does "the pope is the servant of the servant of god" mean?

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Dec 13 2004, 02:07 PM'] Perhaps you missed the part of the Bible where Christ died for love of us. That's the kind of love a man must give his wife: the love that says 'i will do anything for your protection, i will not even shie away from suffering and death for your sake.'

A guy that will die to *protect* his wife is *not* gonna mistreat her. It would be a contradiction.

Peace,
Joe [/quote]
It isn't mistreatment to treat her as less-than if she is supposed to be subservient.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 13 2004, 02:19 PM'] It isn't mistreatment to treat her as less-than if she is supposed to be subservient. [/quote]
the way it works in practice is:
man asks wife her opinion, she gives it
man weighs all sides of the issue, with his love for her as a dominant factor
man makes final decision
wife doesn't undermine husbands authority because she knows that he loves her more than life

the fact that the two have different roles does not make one greater or lesser than the other. just different. you misunderstand the meaning of subservient in thie case: subservient doesn't mean less important. it's like walls and a roof: the walls are subservient to the roof, but the roof would fall without the walls. similarly, the walls benefit from the protection of the roof.

Peace,
Joe

[AaronDavid]

Well put!