Christianity = Sexism?

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 13 2004, 12:55 PM'] Strange, that passage doesn't tell men to do anything but love their wives. [/quote]
Perhaps you missed the part of the Bible where Christ died for love of us. That's the kind of love a man must give his wife: the love that says 'i will do anything for your protection, i will not even shie away from suffering and death for your sake.'

A guy that will die to *protect* his wife is *not* gonna mistreat her. It would be a contradiction.

Peace,
Joe

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 13 2004, 01:33 PM']
Actually they have the same meaning



OR




[/quote]
[url="http://www.m-w.com"]Merriam-Webster[/url] says:

Subservient:
1 : serving to promote some end
2 : useful in an inferior capacity : SUBORDINATE
3 : obsequiously submissive : TRUCKLING

Servant:
: one that serves others <a public servant>; especially : one that performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer

[url="http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/subservient?view=uk"]Compact Oxford English Dictionary[/url] says:

Subservient:
1 prepared to obey others unquestioningly; obsequious.
2 less important; subordinate.

Servant:
1 a person employed to perform domestic duties in a household or as a personal attendant.
2 a person regarded as providing support or service for an organization or person: a government servant.

I trust both of these sources, but to cover the word servile:

M-W
Servile:
1 : of or befitting a slave or a menial position
2 : meanly or cravenly submissive : ABJECT

COED
Servile:
1 excessively willing to serve or please others.
2 of or characteristic of a slave or slaves.

Still demeaning. And you didn't answer my question. What does "the pope is the servant of the servant of god" mean?

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Dec 13 2004, 02:07 PM'] Perhaps you missed the part of the Bible where Christ died for love of us. That's the kind of love a man must give his wife: the love that says 'i will do anything for your protection, i will not even shie away from suffering and death for your sake.'

A guy that will die to *protect* his wife is *not* gonna mistreat her. It would be a contradiction.

Peace,
Joe [/quote]
It isn't mistreatment to treat her as less-than if she is supposed to be subservient.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 13 2004, 02:19 PM'] It isn't mistreatment to treat her as less-than if she is supposed to be subservient. [/quote]
the way it works in practice is:
man asks wife her opinion, she gives it
man weighs all sides of the issue, with his love for her as a dominant factor
man makes final decision
wife doesn't undermine husbands authority because she knows that he loves her more than life

the fact that the two have different roles does not make one greater or lesser than the other. just different. you misunderstand the meaning of subservient in thie case: subservient doesn't mean less important. it's like walls and a roof: the walls are subservient to the roof, but the roof would fall without the walls. similarly, the walls benefit from the protection of the roof.

Peace,
Joe

[AaronDavid]

Well put!

[Carrie]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Dec 13 2004, 04:40 PM'] the way it works in practice is:
man asks wife her opinion, she gives it
man weighs all sides of the issue, with his love for her as a dominant factor
man makes final decision
wife doesn't undermine husbands authority because she knows that he loves her more than life [/quote]
hmmm

I'm a faithful Catholic and I still have problems with this example here.

I don't like the way that works. I think the husband and wife should make decisions together. Not just have the wife give an opinion and then the husband considers it. Both husband and wife should make *joint* decisions concering everything from finances to parenting to what to have for dinner tonight.

Just my .02 cents.

[AaronDavid]

The way illustrated above is how it should be done in practise.....however, as a married Catholic, this is the way it happens:

The wife makes a suggestion.

This is carried out.

The Husband then reflects upon the suggestion and it's subsequent course of action.

The husband nods his head and agrees with it.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='AaronDavid' date='Dec 13 2004, 02:59 PM'] The way illustrated above is how it should be done in practise.....however, as a married Catholic, this is the way it happens:

The wife makes a suggestion.

This is carried out.

The Husband then reflects upon the suggestion and it's subsequent course of action.

The husband nods his head and agrees with it.

[/quote]

[Kilroy the Ninja]

I fear I shall never know the meaning of subserviant.

[I Choose to Be Holy]

One thing that I always think about when I hear this debate is that I think people confuse equality with sameness. Husbands and wives can be treated with equal dignity and respect without being treated the same. God created each of us with unique and awesome roles so we shouldn't want to be treated exactly the same. Eve didn't come from Adam's foot to be inferior, she didn't come from Adam's head to be superior, she came from Adam's side to be his partner.

I am going to quote some stuff from a cco message board that is about this very topic....its not my words but I agree:

"A friend of mine (a guy) once told me that a good relationship is much like a good dance couple. The leader, the man, knows when to be agressive, when to be gentle, and when to let go. And the partner, the women, learns to be responsive to the movements of the leader. When neither person know their role, its total chaos. "

"As guys we need to know when it is appropriate to step aside and let women do what they do best, as our counterpart sex, but also as individuals.

Submission does NOT equal suppression. Submitting to your husband means letting lay down his life for you, like Christ did for the Church. That's where the beauty of Paul's verse lies, rather than oppression or some such nonsense.

So he in return needs to do that. Dying to self in those situations where it is more appropriate for a woman to take the reins, and dying to self in those situations where he must step up and claim leadership."

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Still demeaning. And you didn't answer my question. What does "the pope is the servant of the servant of god" mean? [/quote]


I means he serves even the servants.

[Socrates]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 13 2004, 12:51 PM'] You throw out the terms "real" woman and "real" man as though you get to decide who is which.  That is certainly sexist.  So, if a male is sensitive he isn't a "real" man?  <Expletive deleted>, I had no idea that my father and brothers weren't real men.  Fruz you and your narrow definitions of "real" gender. [/quote]
Note I put "sensitive guys" in quotes. I'm not referring to any man who shows sensitivity or cares for others, but the "sensitive guy"-type, the whiny, over-emotional wimp who doesn't display manly restraint and strength, and lets women and others walk over him. Most women say they want "real men," not "sensitive guys."

We need to bring back the ideal of the gentlemen and the code of chivalry. The gentleman repects women will put his life on line for them. Yet he displays manly strength.

Neither the brutish, vulgar lout nor the "sensitive guy" is a proper model of Christian masculinity. Masculinity must be channeled to positive, good purposes, yet not be denied. Women need gentlemen.

Edited December 14, 2004 by Socrates