CCC 841

[thessalonian]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Dec 14 2004, 10:39 AM'] I think thessalonian is talking about una_fide's question about the Magisterium. [/quote]
I think your right. Sorry I didn't quote.

[thessalonian]

This is interesting from Piux IX.

[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm[/url]
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments

It is very consistent from my reading with PP 841. Paragraph 841 is simply an application of the above to Moslems who may be in this state of invincible ignorance.

I should add it goes on to say


8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]


Thus those who WILLFULLY resist the Church are condemned.

Edited December 14, 2004 by thessalonian

[Don John of Austria]

What would you call WILLFUl, I would call 1300 years of invasion and war to be pretty Willful but thats just me. NOw some Beduin in the desert of Saudi Arabia might be invincibly ignorant, but almost no educated muslim in the modern world is, they all have been offered Christ and willfully rejected Him and His Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

"but almost no educated muslim in the modern world is, they all have been offered Christ and willfully rejected Him and His Church."


What you have talked to them all? Been pretty busy then lately huh...


What a crock.

[thessalonian]

I think willful is left to Christ to judge. It really matters little from our standpoint. We must preach to all the same because we will not know where they are at until both they and we are dead and either meet in eternity or we end up in hell for not informing them of the truth. (Ez 3). Regardless of where they are at our obligation with regard to ignorance is the same. We dare not leave them in it.

I do not think this can be applied to a total class of people as you have done. Nor do I know in what way those who are of the educated class of Moslems have had Christ preached to them in a way that they can understand and accept it. What good is it to beaver dam any of them to hell. To do so is to excuse giving up on bringing them in to the fullness of the truth in my view. "Oh well, they didn't except my superior pitch on Christ right away so they must be going to hell" and we therefore shake the dust from our feet and we have done what we could. Who knows what seed we may have planted in their heart that they have not given us an honest appraisal of. I have told this story before. My father had a field that he had never planted sweet clover on. One year it was very wet in the spring and it all came up in sweet clover. It, according to the neighbor who had been around for many years had not had sweet clover on it for 20 years or more.

Edited December 14, 2004 by thessalonian

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]What you have talked to them all? [/quote]


Yes Cmom thats it you got it I've talked to all of them, why do you think I wasn't on Phatmass for 3 months.


Now to people who wish to behave in a rational manner.

[quote]
We must preach to all the same because we will not know where they are at until both they and we are dead and either meet in eternity or we end up in hell for not informing them of the truth. (Ez 3). Regardless of where they are at our obligation with regard to ignorance is the same. We dare not leave them in it.

[/quote]

No disagreement there, but it is important not to use invincible ignorance as a crutch which is often done, it is very often used to begin a relativistic approach to
other religions. " oh they're okay because we wern't able to communicate in a way that there culture could accept" THAT IS A CROCK, and that iswhat i here from catholics ALL THE TIME, INCLUDING HERE. We are obliged to try and convert the muslims and we are horridly violating the Gospel if we tell them that they might be saved if they don't convert, of course there does come a time when you must , as Christ commanded, " shake the dust off your feet" and let them accept their chosen fate. This BS that someone who has heard the truth is some how let off the hook because they didn't have it put in a way that they couldn't " accept it" is destructive and so out of keeping with the Tradition of the Church I can't even express it. We are required to change to conform to Christ, not the Gospel to change to conform to you and your culture.

[cmotherofpirl]

When you choose rationality let me know.

No one ever said anything about not [i]trying to convert them[/i], did they?

[Don John of Austria]

Cmom did you even read the thread, are you missing something, because this completly illogical statements of yours are not like you.

I have been being rational, everyone in the world who is educated has heard of Christ. If they haven't they have not been educated in anything resembling modernity. Please tell me where it is in the muslim world that they so suppress the knowledge of the great sinless prophet.

[thessalonian]

""This BS that someone who has heard the truth is some how let off the hook because they didn't have it put in a way that they couldn't " accept it" is destructive and so out of keeping with the Tradition of the Church I can't even express it. We are required to change to conform to Christ, not the Gospel to change to conform to you and your culture. "

I've not changed the Gospel to conform to anything. Further, I don't know if anyone I have spoken to about Christ and his Church is going to heaven or hell. At what point does it become bull. The point at which you utter the words Jesus Christ? Or do you have to spend 3 hours with them explaining the Eucharist and the Papacy and Baptism.

I most certainly would not tell anyone who is a Moslem that they are okay where they are at and my understanding of 841 does not mean that I would do that. It simply tells me I am not the judge as you seem to want me to be.

Why would anyone say that someone is "off the hook" because they didn't have....". Since when is anyone "off the hook" in Catholic theology. There is no assured salvation. Everyone needs to come closer to Christ or risk falling into sin and ending up being damned. Not even you and I as baptized Catholics are exempt from continuing to grow in Christ.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 14 2004, 05:30 PM'] Cmom did you even read the thread, are you missing something, because this completly illogical statements of yours are not like you.

I have been being rational, everyone in the world who is educated has heard of Christ. If they haven't they have not been educated in anything resembling modernity. Please tell me where it is in the muslim world that they so suppress the knowledge of the great sinless prophet. [/quote]
"I have been being rational, everyone in the world who is educated has heard of Christ. "

Your sounding a bit modernist or Protestant to me here. Sounds like you
are saying is simply hearing of Christ enough for you. Protestants claim as much. Do you think they are "off the hook". Perhaps they have even cast out demons in his name. Is that enough. At what point is someone "off the hook".

[thessalonian]

BTW - Personally I would say that if I rejected the Immaculate Conception I would be hell bound. So would you put that on your list of what those Moslems in college would have to have heard of and assent to so that they are "off the hook"?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]I've not changed the Gospel to conform to anything.[/quote]

I never said [i]you[/i] did.

[quote]I most certainly would not tell anyone who is a Moslem that they are okay where they are at and my understanding of 841 does not mean that I would do that. It simply tells me I am not the judge as you seem to want me to be.
[/quote]


Agian I never said [i]you[/i] did or would. Nor did I ask you or anyone to be the Judge of any particular muslims soul, however, we need not judge Ilam to know that it is an Evil religion, that has already been determined for us by the Church. Anything that says it is not an Evil religion is denying the Tradition of the Church and Councilier statements to the Contrary( lets not even adresss the affrontery to the authority of the Papacy.) Therefore we must judge the Religion as a whole to be at the very least worthy of nothing but destruction ( that doesn't mean we should kill all the moslems) it should, it must be destroyed.
[quote]
At what point does it become bull. The point at which you utter the words Jesus Christ? Or do you have to spend 3 hours with them explaining the Eucharist and the Papacy and Baptism.
[/quote]

The arrogance of your implacation is astounding, you know nothing of me, how much time have you spent as a missionary to the Heretic, and the Infidel, I spent years, and I have been honored to see my words strike home, to see those I persevered with come into the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. And I assure you that none of those people who have left their former falsehoods did so because I was overly concerned about their culture, I was concerned about the Truth.

[quote]Your sounding a bit modernist or Protestant to me here. Sounds like you
are saying is simply hearing of Christ enough for you. Protestants claim as much. Do you think they are "off the hook". Perhaps they have even cast out demons in his name. Is that enough. At what point is someone "off the hook". [/quote]


First i would submit that a welleducated muslim has heard as much about Jesus as many Christians, That being said here is your answer---


One must assent to as much of the Truth as one has been taught. If someone in Rural China knows only that Christ is the Son of the one God and that you go to the river to be baptized and knows nothing of schism or Church, then He has assented to all that has been offered him( i know for a fact that large portions of China this is the case), the rest is ignorance and since they Have assented to All they have been told it is [i]possible[/i] that they are saved, they are in the Church as Far as they know, but ifone rejects what little they are taught then they have condemned themselves.



[quote] Everyone needs to come closer to Christ or risk falling into sin and ending up being damned. Not even you and I as baptized Catholics are exempt from continuing to grow in Christ. [/quote]

never said otherwise.

[quote]BTW - Personally I would say that if I rejected the Immaculate Conception I would be hell bound. So would you put that on your list of what those Moslems in college would have to have heard of and assent to so that they are "off the hook"? [/quote]


You have been fully informed of the Truth, so I would agree, that muslim in college has to assent to what he has been taught, he must want baptism, he must be baptised if possible, only complete ignorance " invincible ignorance " of theseneeds Can salvation even be possible.

[thessalonian]

"You have been fully informed of the Truth, so I would agree, that muslim in college has to assent to what he has been taught, he must want baptism, he must be baptised if possible, only complete ignorance " invincible ignorance " of theseneeds Can salvation even be possible. "


So if he was taught by a Protestant that baptism was a symbol of obedience, though it really didn't save you, he must desire baptism?

Edited December 15, 2004 by thessalonian

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]So if he was taught by a Protestant that baptism was a symbol of obedience, though it really didn't save you, he must desire baptism?[/quote]

Sacramental baptism is neccessary for Salvation-- I am extremly leary of saying anyone who has any knowledge of it has any hope for salvation with out desiring it.

That being said in the case you mention above it is an easy answer yes he must desiere baptism, even if it was thought only a symbol it was directly instructed by Christ and one could not be in keeping with his teachings if one did not desire to obey that instruction therefore one could not have Truely given assent..


For the moslem convert this would be particularly so as the entire religion is extremly concerned with submission before God.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[thessalonian]

I listen to this evangelical street preacher over the radio. He goes out and preaches to people, convicting them of their sins by the law and then gives them the Gospel. But the Gospel never includes getting baptized. Or if it does it is in a negative way of a work that Catholics think save people. Oh, he expects them to get baptized when they find a local Church but he doesn't include it in his presentation. Now these people may come to a belief about Jesus by his preaching, but are they "saved" in your book?

By the way in case you are getting tired of my questions , this is the last one.


Blessings

Edited December 15, 2004 by thessalonian

[Budge]

One of the most false things the Catholic church is teaching now is that Allah equals God.

The Quran even denies Christ directly! Did you all know that?

So the KORAN is ANTICHRIST according to the Bible--ie of the DEVIL. "Those who deny that Jesus is Lord come in the flesh..."

5:17 Unbelievers are those who declare: "Allah is
the Messiah, the son of Mary." {51} Believers, take neither
Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one
another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one
of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. {54}
Your only friends are Allah, His apostle, and the faithful:
those who attend to their prayers, pay their alms-tax, and
kneel down in worship. Those who seek the friendship of Allah,
His apostle, and the faithful must know that Allah's followers
are sure to triumph. {57} Believers, do not seek the
friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book
before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a
pastime. {66} If the People of the Book (i.e. Christians and
Jews) accept the true faith and keep from evil, We will pardon
them their sins and admit them to the gardens of delight. {71}
[b]Unbelievers are those that say: "Allah is the Messiah, the son
of Mary." Unbelievers are those that say: "Allah is one of
three." [/b]There is one God. If they do not desist from so
saying, those that disbelieve shall be sternly punished. [b]The
Messiah, the son of Mary, was no more than an apostle: other
apostles passed away before him. His mother was a saintly
woman.[/b] They both ate earthly food. {82} You will find the most
implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews
and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are
those who say : "We are Christians." {116} Then Allah will
say: "Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: 'Worship
me and my mother as gods beside Allah?'" "Glory to You," he
will answer, "how could I say that to which I have no right? If
I had ever said so, You would have surely known it. You know
what is in my mind but I cannot tell what is in Yours. You
alone know what is hidden. I spoke to them of nothing except
what You bade me. I said: "Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord."

Mary. 19:35 Such was Jesus, the son of Mary. That is the whole
truth, which they are unwilling to accept. Allah forbid that
He Himself should beget a son! When He decrees a thing He need
only say : "Be", and it is. Allah is my Lord and your Lord:
therefore serve him. That is the right path. Yet the Sects are
divided concerning Jesus. But when the fateful day arrives, woe
to the unbelievers! Their sight and hearing shall be sharpened
on the day when they appear before Us. Truly, the unbelievers
are in the grossest error. {88}[b] Those who say: "The Lord of
Mercy has begotten a son" preach a monstrous falsehood, at
which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder,
and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a
son to the Merciful, when it does not become Him to beget one! [/b]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]but are they "saved" in your book[/quote]


As I said Sacramental Baptism is neccessary for Salvation, this has nothing to do with " [i]my book[/i]" but with the teaching of the Church. I am suprised you do not know all about the requirements for "invincible ignorance"aren't you a seminarian, must have changed the required reading since my days in the Seminary.

[Don John of Austria]

Here is a good article on invinsible ignorance what it does and what it does not mean, and what it does and does not excuse.

It was much easier than writing one myself.

[url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/ignorance.htm"]invinsible ignorance[/url]

Edited December 15, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 14 2004, 09:19 PM'] Here is a good article on invinsible ignorance what it does and what it does not mean, and what it does and does not excuse.

It was much easier than writing one myself.

[url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/ignorance.htm"]invinsible ignorance[/url] [/quote]
I am well aware of what II is and your condescentoin is rather boorish. By the way I am not a seminarian and never was. I suppose that will elevate and increase your arrogance toward me. So the second that someone hears the name Jesus Christ, bamo, their damned to hell until they, not only desire baptism but actually do it? I guess Ambrose was wrong about Catechumens. Then after baptism their "off the hook". It doesn't matter if your catholic or Protestant? Sorry, your answer got my brain thinking again. By the way don't assume my ignorance as you have because I ask questions. That is rather arrogant.

Edited December 15, 2004 by thessalonian

[Don John of Austria]

No I just thought that you said you where, I assure you I don'tthink any more or less of anyone based on their appearance at the Seminary, any of the Old timers can tell you about my War with Sacradotus. He was a seminarian, and that carried absolutely no wieght at all, he was the first person banned from phatmass.


I actually like you a great deal, you simply have a habit making sure you are oppositional even when there is little or no opposition between us, I assure you of two things I will never ever ever say who is certianly saved excpt to say that the Saints are certianly saved, and I will never say who( as an individual) is or is not Damned, I will however say what brings one to Salvation and what causes one to Burn. Outside of the Church there is no Salvation--- If one is not truly invincibly ignorant and one is not a Catholic one cannot be saved.