Scott Peterson Death Sentence

[Apotheoun]

It is part of the traditional doctrine of the Church that when a man willingly accepts in union with Christ the punishment set by the State for his crime, he expiates his sin and can redeem himself.

God bless,
Todd

[cooltuba]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Dec 22 2004, 12:28 PM'] Tuba,
Have you ever read anything on the death penalty written prior to the CCC?

The fact of the matter is this: The state has the right to execute. It may do so when it judges such action to be necessary. It is a prudential judgment made by the state. Such is the teaching of the Church. The Pope does not have the authority to change that. He is personally against the death penalty. Thats fine. But we are not bound to accept that opinion, nor are we bound his assessment of the modern prison system (if there is such a thing as A modern prison system), which is well outside the realm of faith and morals. But even the Pope acknowledges that the DP is acceptable in some circumstances. [/quote]
Yes, I've read Trent on the matter. I don't deny that a murderer DESERVES to die, I stated that. In light of the CCC, though, in our times mercy must be applied because we have the means to protect society non-lethally.

The state is rarely capable of making prudent decisions (think abortion). We must make them for it, by changing the law allowing executions.

Peace,

Tim

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 22 2004, 01:25 PM']

The death penalty is a bigger burden on society than life in prison.

I am assuming you mean a monetary burden... it's cheaper to have someone in prison for life than to execute them.







[/quote]
That's only due to the rediculous appellate system in this country.

[quote]In this case the Church is clear that there is NO NEED for the death penalty.[/quote]

That's interesting. I havn't heard any pronouncements on the case.

[quote]Sin is a sin... we all deserve to die because of our sins... lying, murder, fornication, etc... if we are guilty in one, we are guilty in all. [/quote]

This statement is rediculous. We are talking here about the right or duty of states to punish criminals. What are you talking about? If we guilty in all, then we should all be locked up? Also, the statement "sin is a sin", by which I think you mean something to the efect of all sin being equally grevious, is thelogically incorrect. There are sins that disrupt the social order worse than others. Murdering your wife and unborn child is one such sin. Social order must be restored. It's not about revenge, it's about restoring justice which was disrupted by the crime.

[quote]Things I stated are very relevant, use your mind and think a little.[/quote]
I did. That's why I referred to them as irrelevant. You are mixing apples and oranges.


[quote]
Killing Scott is not punishment, it's revenge. There is no need to kill him to protect society.[/quote]

Again, that rediculous. It would most definately be a punishment. The question being discussed is whether or not it would be a just one. I maintain, for reasons already stated, that it would in fact be just and has nothing to do with "revenge".

[quote]Maybe you should pay a little more attention to the Catechism.... [/quote]

Perhaps. Maybe you should pay a little more attention to what the Church has alsways taught on the subject. Now we both have something to work on.

[quote]The execution of Scott is not an absolute necessity, if you think it is, you've got a lot to learn in life and you are in my prayers.[/quote]

I can assure you that I have much to learn in life. Am I to assume from your statement that you do not? A hair on the self-rightous don't you think?

[Apotheoun]

Mercy must not only be shown to the convicted criminal, but to the family of his victim as well. Moreover, mercy and justice are coordinate principles and cannot be separated from each other, because true mercy must always be just, and true justice must always be merciful.

In some cases the execution of a criminal may be the truly merciful act.

God bless,
Todd

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 22 2004, 12:54 PM'] Mercy must not only be shown to the convicted criminal, but to the family of his victim as well. Moreover, mercy and justice are coordinate principles and cannot be separated from each other, because true mercy must always be just, and true justice must always be merciful.

In some cases the execution of a criminal may be the truly merciful act.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
I respect your opinion, and I realize that as Catholics, we are free to believe that the death penalty may be applied. I choose to believe that we must fight the culture of death wherever we can, including CP. I'm not trying to convince anyone, really, I'm just voicing my opinion.

Peace,

Tim

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 22 2004, 11:08 AM'] I respect your opinion, and I realize that as Catholics, we are free to believe that the death penalty may be applied.  I choose to believe that we must fight the culture of death wherever we can, including CP.  I'm not trying to convince anyone, really, I'm just voicing my opinion.

Peace,

Tim [/quote]
The Church's doctrine is clear, every innocent human being has a right to life. But that does not mean that criminals, who have committed heinous crimes against the moral order, are not to be punished with a punishment commensurate with their crime.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 22 2004, 11:08 AM'] I'm not trying to convince anyone, really, I'm just voicing my opinion.
[/quote]
As we all are.

What all Catholics are required to accept, as an infallible teaching of the Church, is that the State has the right, and sometimes even the duty, to execute a criminal.

Where Catholics may disagree is in the application of the death penalty in relation to particular instances.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Aluigi]

sometimes when Apotheon's here it makes me feel worthless. lol. i'm gonna bow out for now so long as I agree with him, because he's much more eloquent about it than I. I've made my position clear and currently agree 100% with Apotheon.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 22 2004, 01:49 PM'] Yes, I've read Trent on the matter. I don't deny that a murderer DESERVES to die, I stated that. In light of the CCC, though, in our times mercy must be applied because we have the means to protect society non-lethally.

The state is rarely capable of making prudent decisions (think abortion). We must make them for it, by changing the law allowing executions.

Peace,

Tim [/quote]
The state has always had the means to protect society through non-lethal means. Exile to some island prison worked quite nicely. No prison system is fail-proof. People escape prisons today just as they did in the past. There are ancient prisons that had exemplary records. There are modern prisons that have abominable records.

[ironmonk]

Though Catholics are not "required" to stick to it, a Catholic would be a fool to disagree with the official teaching.

Anyone who thinks Scott should die has a lot to learn about Christ.

Understanding and wisdom grows with the Church... States do have the right to use the death penalty, and the Church has been guided to teach that the right is to protect society.

What do you think Christ would say? Do you really think Christ would say kill him? If so, you've got a lot to learn about Christ. Christ loves Him just as much as anyone else.

Would you execute Christ?

[b]St. Matt 25:31 [/b]
"[color=red]When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, [/color]
[b]32 [/b][color=red]and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [/color]
[b]33 [/b][color=red]He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. [/color]
[b]34 [/b][color=red]Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [/color]
[b]35 [/b][color=red]For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, [/color]
[b]36 [/b][color=red]naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' [/color]
...
[b]40 [/b][color=red]And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' [/color]
...
[b]45 [/b][color=red]He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me[/color].'


[i][color=blue]"When I was in on death row, you saved my life"[/color][/i]



If we do not see Christ in everyone, we fail as Catholics.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited December 22, 2004 by ironmonk

[Apotheoun]

Although I will not express my opinion on whether or not the death penalty should be applied in this particular case; I will say this: if Scott Peterson repents and willingly accepts the punishment for his crime in communion with Christ, he can expiate his sin and redeem himself. The Church's doctrine, based as it is upon the immutable divine and natural law, does not forbid, nor can it forbid, the judicious use of the death penalty by the State.

God bless,
Todd

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 22 2004, 02:20 PM'] Though Catholics are not "required" to stick to it, a Catholic would be a fool to disagree with the official teaching.





[/quote]
It is precisely in my agreement with the official teaching (and realstic assesment of the modern prison system) that I am disagreeing with the Holy Father's opinion. If that makes me a fool then so be it.

[quote]Anyone who thinks Scott should die has a lot to learn about Christ.[/quote]

Again, I admit that I have a lot to learn about Christ, as do we all.

[quote]Understanding and wisdom grows with the Church... States do have the right to use the death penalty, and the Church has been guided to teach that the right is to protect society.[/quote]

This is partially true. Protection is not the only end of punishment. Redressing order is also an end.

[quote]
What do you think Christ would say? Do you really think Christ would say kill him? If so, you've got a lot to learn about Christ. Christ loves Him just as much as anyone else.[/quote]

I don't know what Christ would say, nor do you. What we do know is that Christ left the Catholic Church to speak for Him on earth. The Church has done so, and has consistently upheld the right of states to execute and, in fact, had even been employed by the Vatican itself which had the death penalty for certain crimes until 1969.

[quote]Would you execute Christ?[/quote]

Your argument has departed from sound reason. But I'll play along.

No I would not execute Christ. In fact I would not execute anyone (I am not the state). Come to think of it, I wouldn't throw Christ in prison for life either, or even for one second. Why?
Do I need to answer that question? It seems obvious enough to me. In any case, this has nothing to do with the right and/or duty of the State to punish criminals (of which Christ is most certainly not, just to make sure that question does not go unanswered), even to the extent of executing them. The Church has always defended that right. The Church will always defend that right.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 22 2004, 02:20 PM']
[i][color=blue]"When I was in on death row, you saved my life"[/color][/i]



[/quote]
That's interesting. You must have a different version than I do. I don't recall seeing that in there.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Dec 22 2004, 03:40 PM'] That's interesting. You must have a different version than I do. I don't recall seeing that in there. [/quote]
I am truely sorry that I assumed you could comprehend the meaning of that.

I'll try to keep things very simple for you since you feel you are wiser than the Magisterium.

The teaching comes from the Magisterium.

Think about that the next time you wonder why phishy is your label.


Scott could be considered one of Christ's least brethern. We should see Christ in Scott, even though he might have sinned.

You've got a lot to learn... keep reading the new testament and writings from the saints.

Nothing more to be said on the topic... you are wrong.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Guest Aluigi]

is that also why Apotheon is a Church Scholar?

you ignore the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith when it tells us we can have a legitimate diversity of opinion regarding the APPLICATION of the death penalty in the MODERN WORLD. However, the Infallible Teaching of the Catholic Church still stands that a just punishment to anyone who commits an actual grave crime against the society and the state is execution. You can believe that because non-lethal means are available the state should spare some that deserve this penalty, or most that deserve this penalty. John Paul II obviously holds this same opinion, you'd be in respectable and pius company in holding this opinion. But you cannot say that it is absolutely wrong when a state punishes a criminal with execution. That is stepping outside the boundries laid by the Church.

Read the Magisterium in the light of it's 2000 years of infallible teaching and then YOU will understand. On this issue, my friend, it is you who seem to have a lot to learn.

-Pax-

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 22 2004, 05:00 PM'] I am truely sorry that I assumed you could comprehend the meaning of that.

I'll try to keep things very simple for you since you feel you are wiser than the Magisterium.

The teaching comes from the Magisterium.

Think about that the next time you wonder why phishy is your label.


Scott could be considered one of Christ's least brethern. We should see Christ in Scott, even though he might have sinned.

You've got a lot to learn... keep reading the new testament and writings from the saints.

Nothing more to be said on the topic... you are wrong.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Friend, you are most entertaining. Everyone knows that I am phishy because I spent many years working on a fishing boat on the high seas.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Dec 22 2004, 08:11 PM'] Friend, you are most entertaining.  Everyone knows that I am phishy because I spent many years working on a fishing boat on the high seas. [/quote]
What about the "Hello. I do not rep the Church" tag?

Edited December 23, 2004 by cooltuba

[Socrates]

Charity, people!

The death penalty is an issue Catholics can legitimately disagree on.

It has never been proposed as ex cathredra teaching that the death penalty cannot be used.

Plenty of Popes in the past have supported the death penalty.

Because someone is pro-death penalty does not mean he is a bad Catholic or goes against Church teaching.

I'm sick of the death-penalty issue being used to sow confusion and discord!

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 22 2004, 09:37 PM'] What about the "Hello. I do not rep the Church" tag? [/quote]
What about it?

[Guest Aluigi]

correction: it is not an issue Catholics can legitimately disagree on.

it's application in the modern world can be legitimately disagreed on.

Catholics must accept the doctrines that the state has a God-given right and sometimes duty to execute criminals, and that it is a just punishment for some crimes.

They may think that nowadays with available non-lethal means the cases for it's necessity (when the state would have the DUTY) are rare if practically non-existant, or they might not.

Edited December 23, 2004 by Aluigi