Statues and Icons

[Guest JeffCR07]

I posted this in Q&A but figured you might see it here first

I am familiar with both the Eastern and Western theological teachings on Icons. My question is whether or not the same teachings hold for statues as well. Are statues of the Blessed Virgin, St. Francis, etc, to be reverenced in the same way as Holy Icons (are the Saints mysteriously present?). Are there "Holy Statues" just as there are "Holy Icons" ? Or [i]are[/i] statues a type of Icon?

anyways, any clarification would be stupendous!

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[spathariossa]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 12 2005, 03:04 AM'] I posted this in Q&A but figured you might see it here first

I am familiar with both the Eastern and Western theological teachings on Icons. My question is whether or not the same teachings hold for statues as well. Are statues of the Blessed Virgin, St. Francis, etc, to be reverenced in the same way as Holy Icons (are the Saints mysteriously present?). Are there "Holy Statues" just as there are "Holy Icons" ? Or [i]are[/i] statues a type of Icon?

anyways, any clarification would be stupendous!

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff [/quote]
If statues aren't icons and aren't meant to be reverenced then I need to go back to church and take back alot of kisses. Orthodoxy doesn't allow statuary. Oh well, I'll wait for Todd's answer. He knows the doctrines.

[Oik]

I considered switching rites for a while. I attended a byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian) Pro-Cathedral for a while.

Icons are a different expression. They are "windows into heaven."

Statues are not the same.

It is proper to reverance either.

It is correct that in the majority of Eastern Churches, statues are not allowed. The only exception that I know of is the Maronite Church (which has it's own form of iconography that is distinct from traditional iconography).

But, I hope Apoth answers this too.

[dairygirl4u2c]

bowing down to statues

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Jan 12 2005, 10:32 AM'] bowing down to statues [/quote]
Ignorant Catholics? Perhaps it is you that is ignorant. We don't bow down TO STATUES. Tell me, in Joshua 7 would you have condemned the Israelites, seeing Joshua and company bowing down before the Ark of the Covenant? What do you think about the Holy Spirit bowing causing Issac to prophesy that the Jewish nation would bow down before Jacob? This is after Ex 20 so we can certainly speak of these things in that context. Ignorant Jews? Is bowing down in front of something always wrong. Do you every bow down and pray with your Bible in front of you? Some protestants do. Do you call them Ignornat Protestants? I would like direct answers as you seem to think that you are not ignorant and we are, so you must have a supperior capacity for biblical understanding and explanation. Humor us.

God bless

[Oik]

Dairy, your wrong on this one.

Unforutnatly, I think you just posted to cause a stir.

That's too bad. The question was "whether or not the same teachings [that hold for icons in the Eastern Church] hold for statues [in the Western Church] as well.

It seems that you don't have any knowledge in this area. Sorry you are missing out on the beautiful traditions of Faith.

If you do, perhaps know the info, please share, it would be appreciated!

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Icons are a different expression. They are "windows into heaven."[/quote]

I am familiar with at least the basics of iconic theology (is "iconic" a word?). But my question still remains, is the Saint portrayed in a statue mysteriously present in the same way that it is in an icon?

[spathariossa]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 12 2005, 11:30 AM']
I am familiar with at least the basics of iconic theology (is "iconic" a word?). But my question still remains, is the Saint portrayed in a statue mysteriously present in the same way that it is in an icon? [/quote]
See my problem is that I assumed they were. I took statues to be the Western equivalent of icons. But now I'm not so sure.

[Oik]

bump?

[Benedict]

There is some objectification going on here (no pun intended).

Dairygirl and the saints are who and he and they, not that and it.

[StColette]

I've been researching this topic for since it was posted and I've yet to find any source that says that the Saints are mysteriously present within statues as they are within icons. I'll keep looking though.

God Bless,
Jennie

[Guest JeffCR07]

Apothelicious? anything?

[thessalonian]

I sent dairy an email asking here to come back and justify her position that we are ignorant and she is of superior exegetical ability and here study which "shew that " she's "approved" and can explain why we are wrong and why her post isn't another of those straw men we are so familiar with. She to date has declined to do so. I'm not holding my breath. Looks like a hit and ( I can't defend my position) run post to me.

Blessing dairy. :wave:

Edited January 13, 2005 by thessalonian

[cathqat]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 12 2005, 03:26 AM'] Orthodoxy doesn't allow statuary. [/quote]
That's not entirely accurate. I would agree that statues are generally discouraged among the Orthodox, and sometimes condemned, but they are definitely made and used. I have a friend who collects Russian Orthodox statues of a favorite saint.

[Guest JeffCR07]

qat, do you know the answer to my question? By virtue of how much you and Todd quibble, I wouldn't think you'd be one to let him show you up

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

Edited January 13, 2005 by JeffCR07

[cathqat]

I'm very surprised Todd hasn't shown up to answer this thread!

I hope this means he's writing a nasty letter to [i]This Rock[/i] magazine explaining that speaking of God's "uncreated energies" is [i]not[/i] depersonalizing!

[cathqat]

Regarding your original question, I do not know any Orthodox or Eastern Catholic Christian who would consider statues "on par" with icons. Icons are written in such a way that they act like "windows." Three-dimensional statues are not made this way; the eye comes to rest on the statue itself and is not called to move beyond it.

Nor do I know any Western Christians who would apply to statues the Eastern theology of icons. Most wouldn't go any farther than "A statue reminds you of St. So-and-So, and if you have faith, you can receive grace from thinking/meditating about St. So-and-So." Obviously, that falls far short of the Eastern vision of icons.

I like statues, but I regard them as a much, much lesser art. (And Todd thinks it is degrading to regard iconography as an art at all.)

[Guest JeffCR07]

*sigh* I really think you're right, and when Todd agrees (and I think he will) that will seal the deal (you two agreeing? )

I so wanted to find a western equivalent of icons...lol...

[cathqat]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 13 2005, 04:12 PM'] you two agreeing? [/quote]
It's not so far-fetched as you may think. I think we both have a marked preference for Eastern theology in general, for example.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 12 2005, 01:26 AM'] Orthodoxy doesn't allow statuary. [/quote]
After rebuilding Hagia Sophia (AD 532-537) Justinian had statues of the twelve Apostles placed on the trabes beam that was a part of the wall separating the sanctuary from the nave.