Statues and Icons

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 13 2005, 01:36 PM'] I'm very surprised Todd hasn't shown up to answer this thread!

I hope this means he's writing a nasty letter to [i]This Rock[/i] magazine explaining that speaking of God's "uncreated energies" is [i]not[/i] depersonalizing!  [/quote]
Good thing I don't read "This Rock" magazine. But of course the fact is that the uncreated divine energies are the enactments of the divine essence by the three divine persons, and so the divine energies are [i]enhypostatic[/i] realities. Clearly, the divine energies are not depersonalizing, nor are they impersonal, quite the contrary they are personal.

[cathqat]

Yeah, a recent book reviewer and a reader of [i]This Rock[/i] both denounced a book by George Maloney because they believed that what he said about God's uncreated energies was "depersonalizing," like the "Force" in Star Wars. They have no idea what they're talking about, obviously.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 13 2005, 05:02 PM'] Yeah, a recent book reviewer and a reader of [i]This Rock[/i] both denounced a book by George Maloney because they believed that what he said about God's uncreated energies was "depersonalizing," like the "Force" in Star Wars. They have no idea what they're talking about, obviously. [/quote]
Interesting. But I'm sure the reviewer doesn't really understand the Eastern theological distinctions that he's supposedly "critiquing."

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 13 2005, 06:34 PM'] After rebuilding Hagia Sophia (AD 532-537) Justinian had statues of the twelve Apostles placed on the trabes beam that was a part of the wall separating the sanctuary from the nave. [/quote]
Were these relief sculptures? Strictly speaking I don't think sculptures in the round are allowed. If they are then they're at least frowned upon.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 13 2005, 06:31 PM'] Were these relief sculptures? Strictly speaking I don't think sculptures in the round are allowed. If they are then they're at least frowned upon. [/quote]
They were not relief carvings, they were sculptures in the round set on top of the rood beam separating the nave from the bema.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest JeffCR07]

edit: you answered it on the question and answer board. Thanks!

One final question: so would it be wrong for me to apply aspects of the eastern theology of icons to statues?

Edited January 14, 2005 by JeffCR07

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 13 2005, 07:48 PM'] edit: you answered it on the question and answer board. Thanks!

One final question: so would it be wrong for me to apply aspects of the eastern theology of icons to statues? [/quote]
I don't think it would necessarily be wrong to apply elements of Eastern iconic theology to the understanding of statues within the Western tradition, but whatever is used must harmonize with the overall spiritual and liturgical theology of the Latin rite.

God bless,
Todd

[dairygirl4u2c]

actually i don't really believe that. you implied it...
but i admit i was leading you on purposefully. i just felt like causing a stir.
bowing down is showing respect to that person. the creatures of God need to be respected too as they are his creation. much like if you don't admire paintings and stuff then you're doing an injustice to the artist. especially if you only focus one the artist.

my ignorant catholics thing is in response to an ignorant prots thing posted by someone else. they weren't knocked any points, so i decided to do it too. i'm wonderin if i woulda. but of cdourse i realize and don't really care if the mods are partial to nons anyway. it's human nature. and i suppose it makes it more fun.

for awhile i had a disclaimer on there so everyone wouldn't start jumping on me explaining all that... but that really was no fun. so not too long ago i took it off. see, just like the hit and run message.. i was tryin to cause a stir.

not sure if you knew of the old disclaimer and are still sayin that, but i thought i'd just fill in anyone who was unawares. :ph34r:

Edited January 14, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[Catalyst]

people bowed down tothe ark of the covenant because God said He would dwell there to be with His people in way that was tangible to them. He then moved into a temple. After Christs sacrifice He made US His temple. Its wrong to make idols and statues and bow down to them. No different than the golden calf.

Edited January 14, 2005 by Catalyst

[P3chrmd]

There is a difference in bowing down to a statue in "worship" of the statue...and bowing down in respect for the person whom the statue represents!

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:10 AM'] people bowed down tothe ark of the covenant because God said He would dwell there to be with His people in way that was tangible to them. He then moved into a temple. After Christs sacrifice He made US His temple. Its wrong to make idols and statues and bow down to them. No different than the golden calf. [/quote]
Catalyst - If I tore up a picture of your grandmother and spat on it, would you be upset?

The picture isn't your grandmother, but it represents something very dear and very important to you.

Have you ever been homesick and kissed a picture of your mother or father? Is it wrong to do so? Have you ever hugged or kissed an object that you associated with a loved one who had died?

This is what we do with the statues of the saints. We honor them. We put flowers on them. We kiss them. We don't do this because we make Gods of the statues, we do this because for us, the physical, tangible, reminder of the saint moves us and causes a display of emotion within us. In some small way it allows us to feel as though that person is still with us.

That is NOT idolatry. If you view that as idolatry then you had better start ripping up all of your photo albums right now.

Edited January 14, 2005 by spathariossa

[spathariossa]

To add to this, I think that for me, statues serve another important purpose. When I'm around a statue or icon, or wearing a crucifix or saint medal, I'm on my best behavior. I behave better and in a more Christian fashion than I might otherwise. This isn't because I believe God is there in the crucifix and not watching me all the time. Rather, it REMINDS me that He is watching me all the time and knows what I'm doing all the time. Furthermore, it is alot like putting on a uniform. When I wear a crucifix or a saint medal that someone can see, I realize that my actions represent all Christians whether I like it or not. The statues in icons in my room or in church help me to focus on prayer and be more diligent because they remind me that God is watching me.

Edited January 14, 2005 by spathariossa

[Catalyst]

the bible warns of making images and bowing down to them. If you have a discrepency with this...ask God.

[Catalyst]

and no, I would not be upset. More important things to get angry at. Id pray for you. Besides, I'm in th eprosess of disciplining myself with Gods help, not to get mad at people as our enemy isn't of flesh and blood but of powers and principalities.

Edited January 14, 2005 by Catalyst

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:45 AM'] and no, I would not be upset. More important things to get angry at. Id pray for you. Besides, I'm in th eprosess of disciplining myself with Gods help, not to get mad at people as our enemy isn't of flesh and blood but of powers and principalities. [/quote]
The point isn't a contest of personal sin. I've used many Catholic spiritual warfare to eliminate anger myself. However, the matter is one of respect. Do I give that statue a gesture of respect or do I not? Well, I give it a gesture of respect not because I feel the STATUE deserves respect but because what it represents deserves respect. This is like a soldier saluting the American flag. To call it idolatry is to be devoid of common sense.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:43 AM'] the bible warns of making images and bowing down to them. If you have a discrepency with this...ask God. [/quote]
Again. Showing respect and WORSHIPPING are two different things.

[Joseph]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:43 AM'] the bible warns of making images and bowing down to them. If you have a discrepency with this...ask God. [/quote]
I'm curious if you have an issue with statues? Would you say there is nothing wrong with the statues if no one bowed before them?

Being a convert to the church, it was odd to see statues of the saints at first, but these are no different than statues of Lincoln or Washington, or even pictures of people. The full context of the verses dealing with "graven images" seems to deal with people creating idols and worshipping them. While I haven't personally bowed before a statue, I see nothing wrong with a person showing respect in that manner. The statue is not the person, nor is the statue any kind of supernatual being or have any kind of power. The statue is a representation of the saint it is modeled after. For me, seeing that representation of the saint reminds me that ordinary people have the ability to do great things in the eyes of God. Anything that helps people to strive to become more holy should be a good thing in the eyes of God.

If someone does worship a statue, then they are wrong.

[cathqat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 13 2005, 07:33 PM'] Interesting. But I'm sure the reviewer doesn't really understand the Eastern theological distinctions that he's supposedly "critiquing." [/quote]
I did not see the original review, only the followup letter, but that does seem to be the problem. You could check it out in the library on campus, I'm sure, if you care to see it.

[cathqat]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:43 AM'] the bible warns of making images and bowing down to them. [/quote]
Scripture also supplies many examples of people bowing down in respect to angels, prophets, sacred art like the Ark of the Covenant, and other representatives of God [i]without[/i] any condemnation or rebuke. Idolatry is an act of the [i]will[/i], [i]not[/i] of the knees. In fact, Elisha even allows Naaman to bow before pagan idols without committing idolatry. Context is everything. Idolatry is not something visible to the eye, like making religious images or showing reverence to creatures. Idolatry is [i]exchanging[/i] the Creator for a creature, adoring a creature as God, rather than treating both the Creator and His creatures with the appropriate respect due each. Catholics do not adore anyone except God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you have a problem with that, your gripe is not with Catholics, but with scriptural precedent.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 14 2005, 11:45 AM'] I did not see the original review, only the followup letter, but that does seem to be the problem. You could check it out in the library on campus, I'm sure, if you care to see it. [/quote]
I couldn't find the information on their website, but if I have time I may look it up at the FUS library. Thanks for the tip. My directed study course will be on Palamas, and so I am collecting articles that touch on the doctrine of the uncreated energies, perhaps I'll include their article.