Apotheoun Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 Why may I ask is there a debate about the validity or lack of validity of the Jewish religion in a thread on Opus Dei?
Cam42 Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 [quote]Maybe you'll consider commenting on the books that I've referenced rather than avoiding them and commenting on one individual who happens to host these books on their website.[/quote] Why do I want to talk about Judaism? Why do I want to discuss Judaism? This has nothing to do with Judaism....rather it has everything to do with Opus Dei. I don't wish to discuss the Jewish religion to the extent of enabling you to continue to defame the Chosen People of God. Cam42
IcePrincessKRS Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 26 2005, 11:48 PM'] The sites that you list are schismatic. Simple. I didn't say anything about the books. But the websites which are published by St. Gemma Publications are outside the Church. I dodge nothing, but rather I state fact. Cam42 [/quote] I have edited out the links because they refer back to a schismatic website (though they themselves appear to contain only the books). I have left the publication information for anyone interested in the books.
Cam42 Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 That is all I asked....thanks....fidelity to Rome is an important thing. Cam42
james Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 27 2005, 02:41 PM'] Why may I ask is there a debate about the validity or lack of validity of the Jewish religion in a thread on Opus Dei? [/quote] (The following information about Opus Dei's rabbis, was taken directly from Opus Dei's Official Website on January 31, 2002) [quote][b]Rabbi Angel Kreiman Links Escriva's Teaching on Work to the Talmudic Tradition[/b] Rabbi Angel Kreiman: "Many of Josemaria Escriva's concepts call to mind the Talmudic tradition and reveal his profound knowledge of the Jewish world." Rabbi Angel Kreiman contended that Josemaria Escriva's teachings are strongly rooted in Talmudic traditions about work. Kreiman, who is the international vice president of the World Council of Synagogues, made his remarks in an address to a congress in Rome on Opus Dei's founder. The rabbi said that he was pleased about the interreligious prayer meeting for peace occurring January 24 in Assisi. Such meetings, he said, "help us to remember often that we all have the same common father." The Rabbi, who is a Cooperator of Opus Dei, said he wanted to demonstrate his special affection for the organization founded by Josemaria Escriva. "Opus Dei members helped me, right from the beginning of my (rabbinic) seminary studies, to persevere in my vocation," he [Kreiman] said, "and I have also seen them do it with other rabbis, for which I am deeply grateful." [url="http://web.archive.org/web/20020213091115/www.opusdei.org/art.php?p=3007"]http://web.archive.org/web/20020213091115/.../art.php?p=3007[/url][/quote] Edited February 28, 2005 by james
Myles Domini Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 James you appear to be profoundly misunderstanding the spirit of the Work. My spiritual director is a priest of Opus Dei and I have had the pleasure of knowing many members of the Work for sometime now. As you identified Opus Dei has a place for non-Catholic collaborators and this typifies Opus Dei's way of approaching ecumenism. When Opus Dei speaks of ecumenism my sentiments are that mainly what the prelature has in mind is this brand of co-operation with non-Catholics who share our understanding of right and wrong on certain issues i.e. the sanctity of all human life from conception to natural death. Opus Dei understands that politicians arent inclined to listen to things simply because the Holy See tells us they are wrong and that it is often neccessary to campaign for the defence of natural law with other members of society who have similar views (who might not be Catholic in all cases). Accordingly, Opus Dei retains a close relationship with non-Catholics who share the Catholic understanding of natural law i.e. Jews. Opus Dei members are also very kind people James. As I said I am not a member but my spiritual director is and they have allowed me to take part in many of their formative activities, which has helped my Catholicism immensely. Members of Opus Dei do not refuse their friendship to people simply because they are not part of the prelature or baptised Catholics. They put out into deep and drag in a catch of all sorts. Naturally if they can make a convert or two they will. However, if they cant they wont simply pass the person on. In the eyes of Opus Dei friendship is an important virtue no matter what background one's friend is. Genuine Christian love does not bear grudge's as St Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 13. Indeed, it is genuine love that makes us want to evangelise since having seen the love of God we want others to come into their inheritance.
james Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 [quote name='Myles' date='Feb 28 2005, 03:18 AM'] Accordingly, Opus Dei retains a close relationship with non-Catholics who share the Catholic understanding of natural law i.e. Jews. [/quote] Rabbinic Jews like rabbi Kreiman do not share the Catholic view of the natural law. If they did they would be in violation of Talmudic law: the halacha, which all Orthodox Jews are bound by. I suggest that you research the Talmud if you believe that the Catholic and Judaic understanding of natural law are the same. They are, in fact, diametrically opposed.
Myles Domini Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 Excuse me, my friend, for not showing complete correctness is my terminology. I must confess that I am ignorant of the Jewish talmudic tradition for the most part. However, the point I am trying to get across remains. The fact is there are many battles in society that the Church must fight i.e. the current battle to defend the right of Terri Schiavo to live that she cannot fight alone in a society where the people in power only care for the majority vote. For that reason the Church at times needs to reach out to Protestants, Jews, Muslims etc. and work together with them in order to remind the government that they will loose the support of the electorate if they go ahead with certain acts that violate the natural law. Thats not abandoning Catholicism thats simply a sensible way to approach multiculturalism until, of course, Christendom is revived by the New Evangelisation. In that entire post all you did was attack one young man's ignorance, not the validity of Opus Dei's approach to ecumenism--which is far better than the extreme liberalism of some 'ecumenists' who would see the Church become something akin to a communion of parties ala Anglicanism. I do not like to make judgements because woe to me if someone was to sit in judgement over the sins of my life. I would die of shame. Nonetheless, I think you need to take a step back and realise that even if you give over your body to be burnt and have faith that can move mountains without the supernatural virtue of love you have nothing. You seem to be a very knowledgeable, very honest individual. However, at the same time you seem to be blinded by your anger. Opus Dei is far from heretical and the majority of its critics are left wing dissidents from the magisterium. What she is, is faithful to the magisterial teaching of the Holy See, attempting to reach out to people and convert them by any means possible but offering them real genuine assistance whatever the weather. Opus Dei does not see non-Catholics as enemies, just as the great Catholic missionaries of the past did not see the pagans and Protestants of Europe as enemies. They saw them as a people in need of the love of Christ and tried to present them with that love. If the people we reach out to as Catholics do not want a share in God's estate then thats fine, we can do little more than pray for them, but we are not at liberty to hate them. We are not at liberty to hate anybody. We are to love our enemies, bless those that curse us and do good to them that hate us. Indeed, Jesus himself did this from the Cross. Learn from him for he is meek and humble of heart. Moreover, remember the constant faith of the fathers as it was written eloquently by St Irenaeus in the 2nd century AD: "But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).
Cam42 Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 [quote]In that entire post all you did was attack one young man's ignorance....[/quote] Excuse me? Who was ingnorant?
Myles Domini Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 me As I said I know nothing about the Talmud
Cam42 Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 Oops, sorry, I misread the post....my bad. BTW, I assume that you are a Cooperator? I am a supernumerary. If you ever want to chat, PM me. Cam42
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 [quote name='james' date='Feb 28 2005, 12:47 AM'] (The following information about Opus Dei's rabbis, was taken directly from Opus Dei's Official Website on January 31, 2002) [/quote] It is important to note that the article by Rabbi Kreiman expresses his opinion about the nature of certain elements within the teaching of St. Josemaria Escriva, and so it clearly is not an official statement of Opus Dei itself. Nevertheless, the fact that both the founder and members of Opus Dei and Rabbi Kreiman hold that "work is not a punishment, but man's duty, a blessing from God that allows us to fully enjoy the Sabbath and allows us to be in the image and likeness of God," is not a radical or heretical notion. Clearly Catholic do not believe that the Talmud is inspired, and of course there are things in the Talmud that are not compatible with the Catholic faith, but there are also innocuous things in the Talmud that are reflections of the truth based on the light of natural reason alone. Thus, it is best not to overreact and hold that the Talmud in its entirety is somehow innately evil, because clearly it is not. Moreover, it isn't wise to take one article on a website as proof of some massive conspiracy against the doctrines of the Catholic faith. God bless, Todd
Jaime Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 Phatmasser777 states[quote] How could a reasonable person believe that Judaism, a religion that blasphemes Christ throughout it's cannon of texts, could be the precursor to Christianity?[/quote] From the [url="http://www.ajc.org/Interreligious/SpeechesDetail.asp?did=1279&pid=2233"]American Jewish Committee Website[/url] We have this quote [quote]late Cardinal John O'Connor stated his conviction that Pope John Paul II "is unselfconsciously shaped by his fundamental gratitude for Judaism as the very root of his Catholicism ... (and) ... he seems simply to assume that his love for (Jews) and for Judaism itself is so strong that his good intentions should be recognized..."[/quote] Also in the same article [quote]Already in Mainz in November 1980 he addressed the Jewish community as "the people of God of the Old Covenant,[/quote] Phatmasser I know you will probably not acknowledge these quotes. I doubt that you would come out and say that the Holy father was "not a reasonable man" but that is what you are saying if you continue to defend this obviously anti-semitic argument.
james Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 28 2005, 09:04 AM'] Clearly Catholic do not believe that the Talmud is inspired, and of course there are things in the Talmud that are not compatible with the Catholic faith, but there are also innocuous things in the Talmud that are reflections of the truth based on the light of natural reason alone. Thus, it is best not to overreact and hold that the Talmud in its entirety is somehow innately evil, because clearly it is not. [/quote] [quote]"The impious Talmudic, Cabalistic and other [b]wicked[/b] books of the Jews are hereby entirely condemned and they must always remain condemned and prohibited and this law must be perpetuallv observed." Pope Clement VIII[/quote] [quote]Although in the Index issued by Pope Pius IV, the Jewish Talmud with all its glossaries, annotations, interpretations and expositions were prohibited: but if published without the name Talmud and without its vile calumnies against the Christian religion they could be tolerated; however, Our Holy Lord Pope Clement VIII in his constitution against impious writings and Jewish books, published in Rome in the year of Our Lord 1592 … proscribed and condemned them: it was not his intention thereby to permit or tolerate them even under the above conditions; for he expressly and specifically stated and willed, that the impious Talmudic Cabalistic and other [b]nefarious[/b] books of the Jews be entirely condemned and that they must remain always condemned and prohibited, and that his Constitution about these books must be perpetually and inviolably observed. Pope Leo XIII, Index Expurgatorius, 1887[/quote] Apothenoun, your position that "it is best not to overreact and hold that the Talmud in its entirety is somehow innately evil, because clearly it is not" is in clear contradiction to the position of Popes Clement VIII and Leo XIII who descibe the Talmud as "nepharious" and "wicked" and condemned the Talmud and ordered that the condemnation be perpetually and inviolably observed. Edited March 1, 2005 by james
james Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff'][quote]Already in Mainz in November 1980 he addressed the Jewish community as "the people of God of the Old Covenant,[/quote] Phatmasser I know you will probably not acknowledge these quotes. I doubt that you would come out and say that the Holy father was "not a reasonable man" but that is what you are saying if you continue to defend this obviously anti-semitic argument.[/quote] I'll gladly respond to these quotes. It's not necessary for me to accept every rhetorical statement which is made by the pope particularly when those statements are unreasonable. It is unreasonable to point to those who practice Orthodox Judaism today and call them the "people of the Old Covenant." The Israelites were the people of the Old Covenant and it is impossible 2000 years after the diaspora to prove a genetic connection between a person who practices Orthodox Judaism today and the Israelites of the Old Covenant. The majority of Jews today are descendants of Khazar tribes who converted to Judaism centuries after the diaspora. That is beside the point that Orthodox Judaism is not the religion of the Old Covenant. It is the continuation of the Pharasaic tradition which circumvents the Old Covenant religion. [quote name='American Jewish Committee']late Cardinal John O'Connor stated his conviction that Pope John Paul II "is unselfconsciously shaped by his fundamental gratitude for Judaism as the very root of his Catholicism ... (and) ... he seems simply to assume that his love for (Jews) and for Judaism itself is so strong that his good intentions should be recognized..."[/quote] Why on earth should I be concerned about what the AJC--one of the world's greatest enemies of traditional Christianity--has to say about what Cardinal O'Conner has to say about what John Paul II has to say about Judaism? Orthodox Judaism is not the root of Catholicism regardless of what the AJC, Cardinal O'Conner, and John Paul II have to say about it. Edited March 1, 2005 by james
Apotheoun Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='james' date='Feb 28 2005, 06:00 PM'] Apothenoun, your position that "it is best not to overreact and hold that the Talmud in its entirety is somehow innately evil, because clearly it is not" is in clear contradiction to the position of Popes Clement VIII and Leo XIII who descibe the Talmud as "nepharious" and "wicked" and condemned the Talmud and ordered that the condemnation be perpetually and inviolably observed. [/quote] The Talmud condemns murder as immoral (cf. Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5). If I follow your line reasoning, i.e., that everything in the Talmud is evil; it follows that I must hold that the condemnation of murder (because it is found in the Talmud), is an evil thing, and clearly that is not the case. God bless, Todd
Jaime Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 [quote]Why on earth should I be concerned about what the AJC--one of the world's greatest enemies of traditional Christianity--has to say about what Cardinal O'Conner has to say about what John Paul II has to say about Judaism?[/quote] Quite right James (sorry about the moniker mixup. You and Phatmasser are the same height) You shouldn't be concerned about what the late cardinal or the Holy Father has to say on the subject. Unless of course you're Catholic. But that aside, you asked if there were any reasonable people who would say tjat judaism was the precursor to Christianity. Is the Holy Father not "reasonable"?
james Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 28 2005, 10:04 PM'] The Talmud condemns murder as immoral (cf. Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5). [/quote] Actually, the Talmud allows Jews to murder and steal from non-Jews without punishment: Tractate Sanhedrin, Folio 57a [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 28 2005, 10:04 PM'] If I follow your line reasoning, i.e., that everything in the Talmud is evil; it follows that I must hold that the condemnation of murder (because it is found in the Talmud), is an evil thing, and clearly that is not the case.[/quote] Your argument is dishonest. I have not offered my own reasoning. I have repeated the condemnation of the Talmud by former popes Clement VIII and Leo XIII. You may respond to their statements if you disagree with them, as it appears that you do. [quote]"The impious Talmudic, Cabalistic and other wicked books of the Jews are hereby entirely condemned and they must always remain condemned and prohibited and this law must be perpetuallv observed." Pope Clement VIII[/quote] [quote]Although in the Index issued by Pope Pius IV, the Jewish Talmud with all its glossaries, annotations, interpretations and expositions were prohibited: but if published without the name Talmud and without its vile calumnies against the Christian religion they could be tolerated; however, Our Holy Lord Pope Clement VIII in his constitution against impious writings and Jewish books, published in Rome in the year of Our Lord 1592 … proscribed and condemned them: it was not his intention thereby to permit or tolerate them even under the above conditions; for he expressly and specifically stated and willed, that the impious Talmudic Cabalistic and other nefarious books of the Jews be entirely condemned and that they must remain always condemned and prohibited, and that his Constitution about these books must be perpetually and inviolably observed. Pope Leo XIII, Index Expurgatorius, 1887[/quote] Edited March 1, 2005 by james
james Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 28 2005, 10:09 PM'] But that aside, you asked if there were any reasonable people who would say tjat judaism was the precursor to Christianity. Is the Holy Father not "reasonable"? [/quote] In this matter, I don't believe that he is. I've offered the reasons why. Here they are again. It's not necessary for me to accept every rhetorical statement which is made by the pope particularly when those statements are unreasonable. It is unreasonable to point to those who practice Orthodox Judaism today and call them the "people of the Old Covenant." The Israelites were the people of the Old Covenant and it is impossible 2000 years after the diaspora to prove a genetic connection between a person who practices Orthodox Judaism today and the Israelites of the Old Covenant. The majority of Jews today are descendants of Khazar tribes who converted to Judaism centuries after the diaspora. That is beside the point that Orthodox Judaism is not the religion of the Old Covenant. It is the continuation of the Pharasaic tradition which circumvents the Old Covenant religion.
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