"Let God sort them out"

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 31 2005, 01:53 PM'] I wasn't denying that. However I think you need to acknowledge that mythical literature, hagiography, chivalric literature, etc are all very good historical source documents. Just as the Song of Roland tells us nothing of Charlemagne, that doesn't mean it is worthless. It is a very good source for looking at 11th century opinions of muslims, Christian-Muslim relations, and of course the ways in which warfare was conducted. In the same way, mythical literature concerning the Albigensian crusades could be a treasure trove of data other than the strictly historical.

Besides which, documentation for what people actually said doesn't exist. Look at the sermon of Pope Urban II at Claremont for example. Even the trial transcripts of Joan of Arc are not going to be precisely accurate to the words used. That doesn't mean that the sources we have aren't good sources. [/quote]
Excellent points!

[Justified Saint]

[quote]I wasn't denying that. However I think you need to acknowledge that mythical literature, hagiography, chivalric literature, etc are all very good historical source documents. Just as the Song of Roland tells us nothing of Charlemagne, that doesn't mean it is worthless. It is a very good source for looking at 11th century opinions of muslims, Christian-Muslim relations, and of course the ways in which warfare was conducted. In the same way, mythical literature concerning the Albigensian crusades could be a treasure trove of data other than the strictly historical.

Besides which, documentation for what people actually said doesn't exist. Look at the sermon of Pope Urban II at Claremont for example. Even the trial transcripts of Joan of Arc are not going to be precisely accurate to the words used. That doesn't mean that the sources we have aren't good sources. [/quote]

Sounds fine, but this is getting beside the point. You may have read too much into my post if you think I don't realize that chivalric and mythical literature have their historical value. But this is a specific case where a precise statement in a very fictional work is being attributed to a historical person and it would be unwise to think that the saying was actually said. Unless you are contesting that point, then there is nothing left to be said on the matter. However, you knowledge of Medieval history and source material is very edifying and I look forward to your future contributions.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Jan 31 2005, 05:35 PM']
Sounds fine, but this is getting beside the point. You may have read too much into my post if you think I don't realize that chivalric and mythical literature have their historical value. But this is a specific case where a precise statement in a very fictional work is being attributed to a historical person and it would be unwise to think that the saying was actually said. Unless you are contesting that point, then there is nothing left to be said on the matter. However, you knowledge of Medieval history and source material is very edifying and I look forward to your future contributions. [/quote]
Oh I agree with you there. In fact, I daresay it would be impossible to quote anyone from the middle ages unless he himself wrote it down in a book. However, the statement being attributed to Abbot Arnaud might not be entirely without basis. Afterall, the massacre did occur at Beziers and if I am not mistaken the good Abbot was punished at a later date. That a roughly contemporary Catholic could think he might say such a thing is perhaps as telling as whether or not he actually said it.