Oh yeah...I forgot

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Feb 10 2005, 09:35 AM'] 1. What is your position on Baptism?

It is a symbol to the world that you are now saved, and it also represents the death of the old you and the birth of the new you. [/quote]
It's a sacrament...much more than a symbol...but that's for another thread.

[quasimodo]

1. What is your position on Baptism?
* I'm for it

2. What is your position on atheism?
*it takes a lot of faith to be an atheist

3. What is your position on any politician that supports a woman's right to choose?
*choose what?

4. What is your position on Judaism?
*it is the older brother to the church

5. What is your position on non-conservative politics?
*i'm agin it

6. How do you open yourself to new minds and experiences without changing your religious position?
*"open yourself to new minds ...." sounds like gobble-de-gook post-modern speak. Perhaps you mean new ideas.... somebody quoted Chesterton. I like his response. You gotta stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

7. Choose: an atheist friend, or a Catholic enemy?
* I've had both... gotta love them both & sometimes 'taint easy.

8. Choose: abortion-hating liberal willing to give reparations, tax breaks to blacks, free immigration to all, etc., or a staunch conservative who feels no ill will toward abortionists?
*neither

9. Choose: Malcolm X, or Jerry Falwell?
*I assume you mean choose between the images presented of these two by the media. Both are presented in caricature. Choose for what purpose?

10. Choose: Freedom fries or a boycott of Farenheit 9/11?
*I'm fasting so I won't choose the the fries and I don't want to support lies so I'll opt out of this one.

11. Choose: Klan or Black Panthers?
*choose for what purpose? both need conversion...I choose both for that purpose.

12. What do you plan to do with the next four years of Bush's reign?
*"reign?" Presidents don't reign.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 10 2005, 11:55 AM'] 2. What is your position on atheism?
Its the only proovable position that exists today. Every other form of belief requires faith which basicly requires no proof whatsoever to believe in something. Like say, pink elephants.
[/quote]
Actually, atheism requires just as much blind faith as Catholicsism.

Do me a favor, pick up a pencil. Where did that pencil come from? A pencil factory, probably. Where did the wood that went into that pencil factory come from? It grew in a forest on the planet Earth. Where did Earth come from? The Universe. Where did the universe come from? Scientifically, the big bang. What exactly was the big bang? It was two balls of matter slamming into each other and distributing their matter across the galaxy. I ask you, where did those two balls of matter come from? You see, we will never have all of the answers. Things must be accepted on faith, it's just where you choose to put your faith. You put yours (assuming you're an atheist) in two balls of matter that collided for no apparent reason (with all that empty space, what's the chance of the only two things in it coliding), I choose to believe that God created those balls of matter and slammed them together, creating our universe.

Peace,

Tim

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Feb 10 2005, 04:12 PM'] Actually, atheism requires just as much blind faith as Catholicsism.

Do me a favor, pick up a pencil. Where did that pencil come from? A pencil factory, probably. Where did the wood that went into that pencil factory come from? It grew in a forest on the planet Earth. Where did Earth come from? The Universe. Where did the universe come from? Scientifically, the big bang. What exactly was the big bang? It was two balls of matter slamming into each other and distributing their matter across the galaxy. I ask you, where did those two balls of matter come from? You see, we will never have all of the answers. Things must be accepted on faith, it's just where you choose to put your faith. You put yours (assuming you're an atheist) in two balls of matter that collided for no apparent reason (with all that empty space, what's the chance of the only two things in it coliding), I choose to believe that God created those balls of matter and slammed them together, creating our universe.

Peace,

Tim [/quote]
Incorrect. I require no faith in my beliefs. I don't need to explain why we are here or the origins of the universe to make my life feel complete or to make any sense. I just accept its a mystery that most likely will never have an answer. I could easily say that the Universe has always existed , such as you would say god has always existed. If god could have always existed why not the universe? The big bang is just a hypothesis on the origins of the universe, I am confident many more will be proposed as time moves on.

[dUSt]

[quote name='AtheistAlex' date='Feb 9 2005, 11:55 PM'] 1. What is your position on Baptism?

2. What is your position on atheism?

3. What is your position on any politician that supports a woman's right to choose?

4. What is your position on Judaism?

5. What is your position on non-conservative politics?

6. How do you open yourself to new minds and experiences without changing your religious position?

7. Choose: an atheist friend, or a Catholic enemy?

8. Choose: abortion-hating liberal willing to give reparations, tax breaks to blacks, free immigration to all, etc., or a staunch conservative who feels no ill will toward abortionists?

9. Choose: Malcolm X, or Jerry Falwell?

10. Choose: Freedom fries or a boycott of Farenheit 9/11?

11. Choose: Klan or Black Panthers?

12. What do you plan to do with the next four years of Bush's reign? [/quote]
1. I like it.

2. I think athiests have no reason to not look at pornography and steal things.

3. I think politicians who support abortion should also support murder, because it's scientifically equivalent.

4. I think Jews are 2000 years behind the times.

5. Some good, some bad.

6. By always relating it to Jesus.

7. Athiest friend.

8. The former.

9. Malcolm X.

10. I don't know what Freedom fries are.

11. Black Panthers

12. Use my tax breaks wisely and vote for the pro-life candidate next election, Democrat or Republican.

[Socrates]

Well, these are mostly "loaded questions" but here's my personal answers.

1. It makes one a member of Christ's Church and allows one to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

2. A sadly mistaken idea.

3. He is wrong. No one has a "right to choose" murder. ("Women's right to choose" is such a euphemism - why not just say "abortion"?)

4. Jews were the Chosen People of God from which came the Messiah. Jews should accept Christ.

5. Vague question -there are many different political positions. I despise modern liberalism.

6. Another vague question. The two options are not contradictory.

7. Atheist friend. No true Catholics should be enemies.

8. Abortion hating liberal! Abortion (the taking of innocent human life) is by far more important morally than these other issues.

9. Jerry Falwell (he doesn't advocate violence)

10. Freedom Fries - they're delicious!

11. Neither - they both smell of elderberries! (You're just trying to put us into a corner here)

12. Same as I'd do under any President - keep fighting for the truth and trying to work out my salvation. There's alot that needs to be improved whether Bush or Kerry is president.

Edited February 10, 2005 by Socrates

[AtheistAlex]

I think the questions were loaded, in fact, but I was told to come on here to ask questions. And 11. is not trying to put anyone in a corner. One could, if they wanted to, justify in a reasonable fashion why they would accept one or the other. Of course, I also accept the "neither" answer, too.

Peace be with you,

Alex

P.S. I would personally pick the Black Panthers, as they are not, a hate-motivated organization. That's my opinion. Truthfully, I wondered if that question was going to be answered at all when I typed it, but well you know the rest...

Edited February 11, 2005 by AtheistAlex

[Winchester]

Atheist.

Choose: Nietzsche or Jesus.

1.I go w/the Church.
2.I find it rather morose on the whole and nonsensical as espoused by most athiests.
3.He's mistaken about the most basic of human rights, a panderer, a monster, or one of the sheep.
4.Usually Tailback, but sometimes Linebacker.
5.I like change when change is necessary, so all conservatism is not good.
6.A sharpened spoon.
7.A Catholic enemy.
8.Staunch conserv. I pay taxes, reparations are about the stupidest idea to come down the pipe and the ogvernment needs to revamp handouts because they're not solving any problems. Pressure from other conservatives will temper the con's antipathy.
9.Malcolm X. He's dead. I believe Nation of Islam handled that one because he was "going soft." Friends are a wonderful thing, ain't they?
10. Freedom fries. Boycotts are boring and I'm already not going to watch the movie.
11.Klan. They're fatter and slower, thus much easier targets. Black Panthers tend toward discipline and leanness and are more educated, thus more difficult enemies. They also avoid inbreeding, so their gene pool is better. I also think they're less bigoted and have a more positive effect on the community. (Did I take this question in the right spirit?)
12.I'm going to fight fire, pay my outrageous taxes and complain. Also, I will drink beer and chew bubblegum.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 10 2005, 04:21 PM'] I could easily say that the Universe has always existed , such as you would say god has always existed. If god could have always existed why not the universe? [/quote]
But that's my point. If you say that the universe has always existed without being able to prove it scientifically, you are basing your beliefs on faith.

Faith: " Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence".

You say that Atheism "Is the only proovable position that exists today.", yet you can't prove that the universe has existed for all of time any more than I can prove to you that God has existed for all of time.

All I'm saying is that you have faith. It's not a bad thing, don't get too upset.

Tim

[AtheistAlex]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Feb 11 2005, 12:35 PM'] Atheist.

Choose: Nietzsche or Jesus.

1.I go w/the Church.
2.I find it rather morose on the whole and nonsensical as espoused by most athiests.
3.He's mistaken about the most basic of human rights, a panderer, a monster, or one of the sheep.
4.Usually Tailback, but sometimes Linebacker.
5.I like change when change is necessary, so all conservatism is not good.
6.A sharpened spoon.
7.A Catholic enemy.
8.Staunch conserv. I pay taxes, reparations are about the stupidest idea to come down the pipe and the ogvernment needs to revamp handouts because they're not solving any problems. Pressure from other conservatives will temper the con's antipathy.
9.Malcolm X. He's dead. I believe Nation of Islam handled that one because he was "going soft." Friends are a wonderful thing, ain't they?
10. Freedom fries. Boycotts are boring and I'm already not going to watch the movie.
11.Klan. They're fatter and slower, thus much easier targets. Black Panthers tend toward discipline and leanness and are more educated, thus more difficult enemies. They also avoid inbreeding, so their gene pool is better. I also think they're less bigoted and have a more positive effect on the community. (Did I take this question in the right spirit?)
12.I'm going to fight fire, pay my outrageous taxes and complain. Also, I will drink beer and chew bubblegum. [/quote]
Oh beaver dam, that's a weird one, but uh...Jesus. He was a proponent of the weak gaining strength over powerful aristocrats, though I'm can't prove anything about the deity he proposed existed. Nietzsche said absolute morality does not work, and so he gets some points, but he calls religion subversive and evil, so I dunno where he goes with that. So the final score is....

Jesus 5

Nietzsche 4

[toledo_jesus]

1. Essential. Water or Blood or Desire...whatever.
2. I don't understand how it exists.
3. Abortion is murder and I will not support murderers.
4. Judaism is not a widespread religion. They'll be around for awhile though. Unless they all go Reformed.
5. I would like to see social justice as a goal of politics. Sometimes that means liberal, sometimes conservative.
6. I don't subject myself to relativism, however in an attempt to understand even my own religion it is beneficial to go to the very limit of reason, to that precipice where faith takes over. so I go that far when I try to understand new things.
7. Atheist friend.
8. Abortion hating liberal. The other issues do not rise to the same level.
9. Malcolm X. He grew a beard.
10. boycott F. 9/11, but not for political reasons. Moore has perfected the crockumentary, and I don't enjoy those.
11. Which would I choose to join? Black Panthers wouldn't have me...
12. Get out of school, start working, get married, enjoy my life.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 10 2005, 04:21 PM'] Incorrect. I require no faith in my beliefs. I don't need to explain why we are here or the origins of the universe to make my life feel complete or to make any sense. I just accept its a mystery that most likely will never have an answer. I could easily say that the Universe has always existed , such as you would say god has always existed. If god could have always existed why not the universe? The big bang is just a hypothesis on the origins of the universe, I am confident many more will be proposed as time moves on. [/quote]
One would expect, given your signature, that you would put forth a rational argument.

It seems to me that you offer two contradictory positions. First, you say "Its a mystery that most likely will never have an answer." Then you say that you "could easily say that the Universe has always existed."

I will ignore, for now, the conflicting signals of your post, and seperate the one from the other, dealing with them each in turn.

First, let us ignore your "universe always existed" argument and assume that you are arguing simply that it is a mystery that we cannot understand. Such an argument bears no logical weight. First, by taking up such a stance, you would have to make the pressuposition that there is a limit to how much of the physical universe we can understand. This is a very, very large pressuposition and, taken to its ultimate conclusion, calls into question the very nature of science. Why do you find it necessary to take such a step? Furthermore, such a mystery-postion is simply a semantical manner of fence-sitting. While it may sometimes be wise to hold out one's opinion on a matter, doing so makes it impossible to argue contra to either of the two existant sides of the argument. So, your final "out" with this argument is that the mystery-position is [i]not[/i] an ambiguous position, but rather, is a definitive one. However, if this is your argument, it is an amazingly weak one, considering you do not put forward any points that would make it a more plausible position than that of those who believe in God, or who believe in no God at all.

Now, the first possible argument in your self-conflicting post having been dealt with, let us turn to the argument that holds that the universe has always existed, and let us pretend that this is your sole argument. I shall explain the error of this position by manner of geometric proof.

Premise 1.) Either the universe is a causally based system or it is not.

Premise 2.) In order for a conclusion to be legitimately maintained, that conclusion must be backed by reason.

Assumption 1.) Let us assume that the universe has always existed.

Point 1.) If the universe has always existed, that is, if the situation described in the previous post (either one or two singularities existing which comprise all matter) have always existed, then that singularity (or those two singularities) would have no cause.

Point 2.) If these singularities have no cause, then we understand that the Universe is not causally based. (This is seen through Premise 1 and Point 1)

Point 3.) If one is to legitimately maintain the conclusion that the universe is not causally based, then that conclusion must be backed by reason. (This is seen through Premise 2)

Observation: All that I know, all that I see, and even the manner in which I think (using reason) lead me to believe that things are causally connected. Moreover, there is nothing that would lead me to reasonably maintain that causal-connection is non-existent. In fact, it is impossible for me to reasonably put forward a non-causal construct of the universe, because the very act of reason and logic is a causally based.

Conclusion: One cannot legitimately maintain the conclusion that the universe is causally based. (This is seen through Point 3 and the Observation).



So such an argument is untenable. Thus, your second argument, just as your first, fails. Tacking on to all of this the fact that you leave it ambiguous as to which of the two is actually your argument, I must say that your previous post did nothing to help your position.


- Jeff

[Winchester]

Good answer. I would say N holds the only tenable position for an atheist (will to power.)

You must lean toward a sort of stoicism, then, which is kind of a bastardized atheism.

[AtheistAlex]

Thanks, though I wasn't going for brownie points...

*holds stomach* Awww...brownies...not again.

Edited February 15, 2005 by AtheistAlex

[Winchester]

Good. Brownie points mean so little in my cuthroat world of mockery and non sequiter.

Why JFK?

[AtheistAlex]

My second favorite President, behind Abraham Lincoln.

Kennedy was a Catholic, at least that's what the history books say.

Who's your favorite president?

Edited February 17, 2005 by AtheistAlex

[Winchester]

Reagan, or maybe Bush senior. Of course, I like Hamilton, too. Lincoln was kind of a war monger.
JFK had some good ideas, but did great harm with his position regarding church and state.
Garfield was nice.

So, as an atheist, what form of morality does function? I'm working on the assumption you follow a sort of pragmatism in your philosophy, since the concept of good and evil without an eternal truth doesn't really work.

[AtheistAlex]

Atheists are not a sole congregation, rather a mishmash of people who have decided that they cannot provide a reason for a belief in a God or gods. That being said, every atheist's moral set may be different from one another.

Hm. Truthfully, I hadn't studied philosophy much yet, but after looking at 'pragmatism', I have to say it had some characteristics I hold dear. To hold something as true, one must at the very least have a logical process behind it. Basically, when I think about moral decisions, I ask myself, "Why am I doing this? What does it contribute?" I think people may not be here for some specific reason, but the greatest moral good comes from doing the greatest good for people. That's where it degenerates, though. What is the greatest good?

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Feb 18 2005, 06:25 PM'] Reagan, or maybe Bush senior. Of course, I like Hamilton, too. Lincoln was kind of a war monger.
JFK had some good ideas, but did great harm with his position regarding church and state.
Garfield was nice.

So, as an atheist, what form of morality does function? I'm working on the assumption you follow a sort of pragmatism in your philosophy, since the concept of good and evil without an eternal truth doesn't really work. [/quote]
President Hamilton?

[AtheistAlex]

Do you mean President Harrison?