Are Jews going to Hell?

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 10 2005, 04:58 PM'] If I understand it better, than that means I would feel more comfortable with the idea of the jews of auchwitz burning? Don't see your point here. [/quote]
I wasn't talking to you I push quote when I want to do that.

[MichaelFilo]

Are Jews going to hell? Yes.
So are alot of other people.

Did those Jews in the Nazi camps all not go to hell, I doubt it. Just because your a victim of one thing, doesn't mean your a good person. Yes, even if you are a victim of one of the ugliest things in history, doesn't mean your a good person. Jews, at least to the Phatmass Arab-born guy, are people too. They go to Heaven on God's terms. I also know alot of people have been the victims of ugly happenings, doesn't mean they go to heaven. If I lie, cheat, steal, gamble, use God's name in vain, and commit hideous sexual crimes, and then one day I'm dragged off into the slave market in some south Pacific country where I am mistreated, and shown nothing but cruelity, I still did all those things before. I'm not saying JEws ar ebad people, I'm just saying, evne if they were victims, doesn't mean theya ll go to Heaven.

God bless,
Mikey

[crusader1234]

1) Not all the Jews were innocent - all of them were probably terrible sinners like you and I.
2) Outside of baptism there is no salvation, with few exceptions.

[MichaelFilo]

There is no slavation without baptism. Please don't spread inaccuracies. You know quite well there is no salvation without baptism as well as I do.

God bless,
Mikey

[crusader1234]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 11 2005, 12:22 AM'] There is no slavation without baptism. Please don't spread inaccuracies. You know quite well there is no salvation without baptism as well as I do.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Actually, you're wrong from a Catholic standpoint.

[Qwertyuiop]

[quote][b]If[/b] you know that the Catholic church is the fullness of truth and walk away, you condemn yourself.[/quote]

Is there actually anyone in the world who [b]knows[/b] catholism is true and still walks away from it?

I sure don't know it to be true. That's why I'm not catholic. If I knew it be true, why would I walk away from it?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 10 2005, 10:22 PM'] There is no slavation without baptism. Please don't spread inaccuracies. You know quite well there is no salvation without baptism as well as I do.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Of course the sacrament of Baptism is the ordinary means for regenerating a man and translating him from a state of mortal sin to a state of deifying grace, but the Church teaches that martyrdom for the faith and the desire for Baptism (both explicit and implicit), have the same effect as the sacrament of Baptism, without being sacraments; for as the Catechism teaches: "The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament." [[u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u], no. 1258]

[musturde]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Feb 11 2005, 12:12 AM'] 1) Not all the Jews were innocent - all of them were probably terrible sinners like you and I.
2) Outside of baptism there is no salvation, with few exceptions. [/quote]
What are you talking about? So all ignorant agnostics and pagans are going to hell? That's not what the Church teaches.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='musturde' date='Feb 11 2005, 06:51 AM'] What are you talking about? So all ignorant agnostics and pagans are going to hell? That's not what the Church teaches. [/quote]
A distinction must be made between [i]invincible ignorance[/i], which is not imputable to a man, and [i]vincible ignorance[/i], which is imputable to him. [i]Invincible ignorance[/i] is not willful, but is based upon the inability of the man in question to grasp the truth and correct his moral conscience, while [i]vincible ignorance[/i] is willful, in that it is a form of ignorance that could have been corrected, but which, for whatever reason, was not corrected. Now, when a man judges another man, he is in fact only judging the objective nature of the other man's actions, and so he is not judging the man's heart. God alone can know who is or not invincibly as opposed to vincibly ignorant, and that is why He alone is the judge of a man's soul (cf. [u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u], no. 1861).

God bless,
Todd

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Feb 10 2005, 05:18 PM'] Frankly, it's none of your business whether or not those people went to hell. It's that simple: WE DONT KNOW. Apotheon has presented what the criteria are for heaven or hell. if they were inculpably ignorant but attemtped to follow God's will through the dictates of their God-given conscience, then they could have gone to heaven by God's mercy. we don't know. and I don't see how the way they died has any bearing on whether or not it'd be just for them to be in hell. If they went to hell, then their soul was in a state of mortal sin and they are thus eternally in mortal sin and would justly be in hell. [/quote]
I beg to differ, as a human who cares for my fellow person I have every right to care if I think innocent people are unjustly being punished. And if WE DONT KNOW, than how do we know if we follow this criteria to going heaven that we might not end up in hell instead?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Feb 10 2005, 05:36 PM'] To me the reason I remained Catholic and became devout is because the church established by Jesus is the only church that has all the abundant graces needed for salvation. I am not saying that all the other churches including Judaism, do not have graces. I am sure they do, but only the Catholic church through Jesus are we able to fully realize the extent of God's graces here on earth. The graces received with our 7 sacraments, the graces received through the Mother of God, through the rosary, through the novenas, through the Holy Spirit with His gifts, and so on. Limitless, yet so attainable.

Another example (IMHO), say I want to build a house. Catholic church for me would be like Home Depot and the other curches are walmart, target, kmart, etc. [/quote]
But if I can get everything I need from my local hardware store, why should I have to go to home depot?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 10 2005, 06:35 PM'] The Nazis were not Christian. They were nihilistic neo-pagans. Hitler despised the Church and considered Christianity an evil "Semetic" religion.

I'm sick of all this modern carp that the Nazis were Christian and Christianity is responsible for Nazism. [/quote]
Than you can probably understand how I feel when people say that Atheism is responsible for communism. Its absurd. It was never my point to say the nazis were christian, thats completely irrelevent to my statement. Its the injustice the jews suffered under them, and the damnation there after they would face.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 10 2005, 11:32 PM'] Are Jews going to hell? Yes.
So are alot of other people.

Did those Jews in the Nazi camps all not go to hell, I doubt it. Just because your a victim of one thing, doesn't mean your a good person. Yes, even if you are a victim of one of the ugliest things in history, doesn't mean your a good person. Jews, at least to the Phatmass Arab-born guy, are people too. They go to Heaven on God's terms. I also know alot of people have been the victims of ugly happenings, doesn't mean they go to heaven. If I lie, cheat, steal, gamble, use God's name in vain, and commit hideous sexual crimes, and then one day I'm dragged off into the slave market in some south Pacific country where I am mistreated, and shown nothing but cruelity, I still did all those things before. I'm not saying JEws ar ebad people, I'm just saying, evne if they were victims, doesn't mean theya ll go to Heaven.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
But I would say they are good odds for good kind loving people to exist among 6 million, or would you disagree?

[Neal4Christ]

[quote][b]And if WE DONT KNOW, than how do we know if we follow this criteria to going heaven that we might not end up in hell instead?[/b][/quote]

You are equivocating here. He was referring to the individuals that you asked about. And his answer is true: we don't know. We don't know these people and we don't know what they believed. The path has been laid out by God through his revelation. That is a totally different subject. You took his answer for one question and applied it to another question.

God bless!

[Winchester]

Summation: We don't know who goes to Hell. It's best to try to convert people to Catholicism because it's the whole Truth and the way to Heaven.

We still don't know who goes to Hell, and the Church doesn't make that call, she never has, never will. It's between each of us and God.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Feb 11 2005, 12:24 PM'] Summation: We don't know who goes to Hell. It's best to try to convert people to Catholicism because it's the whole Truth and the way to Heaven.

We still don't know who goes to Hell, and the Church doesn't make that call, she never has, never will. It's between each of us and God. [/quote]
If we don't know who goes to hell, than how can we know that being catholic prevents us from going to hell?

[jasJis]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:08 PM'] If we don't know who goes to hell, than how can we know that being catholic prevents us from going to hell? [/quote]
Because we do know we are saved by Grace and we do know how to recognize Grace and we do know that the Catholic Church is the fullest source of Grace that the chances are better.

Being a member of a religion does not save you, saying yes to Grace does. Belonging to a religion is about seeking Grace and helping others seek Grace and finding Grace.

Seek and you shall find. Where should we look? Just the Bible? The Bible is a source of grace, but not the only source. When you are in an orchard do you eat off of only one tree? If you are in a well run and diversified farm, do you stay in only one orchard? If you are in the a fertile valley do you stay in just one farm? Though we can find nourishment in an orchard or farm, we can still move around for a well balanced meal. Though we can feed in many places within the valley, we will not find ample food in the desert.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:25 PM'] Because we do know we are saved by Grace and we do know how to recognize Grace and we do know that the Catholic Church is the fullest source of Grace that the chances are better.

Being a member of a religion does not save you, saying yes to Grace does. Belonging to a religion is about seeking Grace and helping others seek Grace and finding Grace.

Seek and you shall find. Where should we look? Just the Bible? The Bible is a source of grace, but not the only source. When you are in an orchard do you eat off of only one tree? If you are in a well run and diversified farm, do you stay in only one orchard? If you are in the a fertile valley do you stay in just one farm? Though we can find nourishment in an orchard or farm, we can still move around for a well balanced meal. Though we can feed in many places within the valley, we will not find ample food in the desert. [/quote]
So than its possible to atain grace through another religion? How about a philosophy thats not dogmatic? Thanks for the answers everyone

[jasJis]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:30 PM'] So than its possible to atain grace through another religion? How about a philosophy thats not dogmatic? Thanks for the answers everyone [/quote]
Yes, it is possible to attain grace through other religions, especially Christian religions. The source of grace in other religions is the Catholic Church, the original and fullness of Christian Grace.

While it is possible to attain Grace elsewhere, what about saying No to Grace? If one believes in Salvation vs. Condemnation, where Salvation is saying yes to Grace, than Condemnation is saying no to Grace. If one is saying Yes to Grace considering their human limitations to recognize it, and if that Yes leads them to God in the Jewish faith, then they could be saved. If one is saying No to Christianity to stay Jewish, one risks saying No to Salvation.

It's what you are saying yes to, and what you are saying no to.

What kind of philosopy is not dogmatic? There is none. Even an anarchist's philosophy is dogmatically opposed to order and control by others.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:38 PM'] What kind of philosopy is not dogmatic? There is none. Even an anarchist's philosophy is dogmatically opposed to order and control by others. [/quote]
You're right. I was trying to say more of a person who maybe has various philosophical ideas but doesn't necessarily follow any text or doctrine. Just a person who is kind and has a unique view on life. Any chance of them getting into the pearly gates?