Are Jews going to Hell?

[jasJis]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:47 PM'] You're right. I was trying to say more of a person who maybe has various philosophical ideas but doesn't necessarily follow any text or doctrine. Just a person who is kind and has a unique view on life. Any chance of them getting into the pearly gates? [/quote]
Of course. Read my previous answers and apply them to your 'unique' philosophy.

What are you saying 'yes' to? What are saying 'no' to? And why?

Are you unable to say 'yes' to aspects of certain religions? Search yourself to find out why? Is it because you emphatically want to say No to something like priests who abuse kids or televangelists who are all about money? You can be a great Christian and belong to a Baptist church and say no to what the televangelist is doing. You can be a great Christian ban bleong to the Catholic Church and sany not to what the priest is doing. Accepting a religion isn't necessarily accepting what's bad about it.

There are many things in Catholicism and other relgions that don't have to be agreed with. Some things are suggested for review and belief and udnerstanding, some things are mandatory, are some are simply acceptable to be believed if you so choose. The 'Dogma' are the core values of a philosophy. Identify them first and build on them.

[rufiokicks]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='Feb 10 2005, 04:55 PM'] We don't know who is going to hell, and it would be absolutely wrong to say that any GROUP of people is going to hell, because salvation hinges on an individual's accountability- was he ignorant, defiant of the Truth? We can never, and should never, say that we know the state of someone's salvation. [/quote]
I agree, we aren't in the place to judge. I find it hard to believe that all Jews would go to Hell; wasn't Jesus a Jew? I mean, granted, he was the Savior and rose from the dead, but hypothetically that would mean Jesus would go to Hell for being Jewish. Your religious affiliation alone doesn't determine your fate. Man will never know who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.

[Melchisedec]

Its a very liberal view in general. Its basiclly saying that if you worship god, and you are under his 'grace', no matter what system it is (christian, jew, muslim) you will go to heaven. Jesus indeed was a jew, the fact that jews do not accept him as their messiah is ironic at best. This is a new view I am encountering, most of the christians I know are not catholic (i live in the south). So the view is very black and white. Accept jesus christ as your lord and savior and you got a ticket into heaven. All else, go to hell. So in their views, the jews that met their death by the death camps are all burning right now. THe catholic view from what I gather is, aslong as they were in 'grace' with god that it doesnt matter if they are christian or not, they still go to heaven. Interesting.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 04:48 PM'] THe catholic view from what I gather is, aslong as they were in 'grace' with god that it doesnt matter if they are christian or not, they still go to heaven. Interesting. [/quote]
You must also understand that to be outside the Church and in a state of grace at the same time, you must basically live the moral teachings of the Church, despite never having heard of the Church. Catholicism teaches that one can know God [i]to an extent[/i] based on human reason. Reason alone, however, cannot account for the whole of Divine Revelation, and that is why the Church undertakes evangelization... To preach God revealed to man; his plan of salvation, Jesus the Christ.

[crusader1234]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 11 2005, 09:13 AM'] A distinction must be made between [i]invincible ignorance[/i], which is not imputable to a man, and [i]vincible ignorance[/i], which is imputable to him. [i]Invincible ignorance[/i] is not willful, but is based upon the inability of the man in question to grasp the truth and correct his moral conscience, while [i]vincible ignorance[/i] is willful, in that it is a form of ignorance that could have been corrected, but which, for whatever reason, was not corrected. Now, when a man judges another man, he is in fact only judging the objective nature of the other man's actions, and so he is not judging the man's heart. God alone can know who is or not invincibly as opposed to vincibly ignorant, and that is why He alone is the judge of a man's soul (cf. [u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u], no. 1861).

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
Good explanation.

[Guest Aluigi]

I always refer to them as culpable and inculpable ignornace.

ignorant people can go to hell. we cannot know whether a person is culpable for his ignorance or not. "knowing Catholocism is true and rejecting it" isn't exactly the right way to put it, it's just the easiest way to say it in our language.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 03:48 PM'] Its a very liberal view in general. Its basiclly saying that if you worship god, and you are under his 'grace', no matter what system it is (christian, jew, muslim) you will go to heaven. Jesus indeed was a jew, the fact that jews do not accept him as their messiah is ironic at best. This is a new view I am encountering, most of the christians I know are not catholic (i live in the south). So the view is very black and white. Accept jesus christ as your lord and savior and you got a ticket into heaven. All else, go to hell. So in their views, the jews that met their death by the death camps are all burning right now. THe catholic view from what I gather is, aslong as they were in 'grace' with god that it doesnt matter if they are christian or not, they still go to heaven. Interesting. [/quote]
I don't think it's liberal. It's very black and white.

If you cooperate with Good in every manner known to you, you cooperate with God and you're in a state of Grace. The tricky part is knowing good from bad, or blinding yourself to good. A Baptist who is raised Baptist and never really has had a good example or perception of Catholicism would be very hardpressed to comprehend any greater good than what he is finding in his Baptist church because he was raised in it and his perspective is focused. Whereas a philosophical person who is open minded, once they've started exploring Christianity would be hard pressed to deny the greater opportunities to know and say Yes to Good (God) in the more developed theologies such as Lutherans and Catholics and if they remained open-minded, would become Catholic. (I'm making this analogy based on the Sacramenta Truths that Luths and Caths know). But let's say he meets a girl who's Pentecostal. Does he stop his quest for Full Enlightenment so he can avoid problems with his new girl-friend? Is that putting emotional/sexual needs before fundamentally learning the Truth of Good and putting a relationship with God second?

It's a complicated issue and though it's black and white, we are journeying and it takes God to judge. He gives us credit for trying, and demerits for not trying, keeping in mind the influences of our parents and society as we are raised. Most Christians I'm friends with and discuss religion are not Catholic as I live in the South. Most Christians do believe in participating with Grace and many don't accept the 'Once Saved Always Saved'. Cooperating with Grace is not just a Catholic thing. Catholics point out that some are not as blessed as us Christians to have the God as well witnessed to them, but sometimes it isn't their fault, but EVERYONE can recognize Good and God is All that is Good, so EVERYONE has the [u]obligation[/u] to follow Good and turn from evil.

[Apotheoun]

Back in August of 2000 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued the Instruction [u]Dominus Iesus[/u] in order to give an authoritative clarification on the relationship that exists between the Catholic Church and the various non-Christian religions of the world. This document may help in clarifying some of the distinctions made in this thread as it concerns the salvation of non-Catholics.

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html"]CDF Instruction [u]Dominus Iesus[/u][/url]

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 11 2005, 09:25 AM'] Of course the sacrament of Baptism is the ordinary means for regenerating a man and translating him from a state of mortal sin to a state of deifying grace, but the Church teaches that martyrdom for the faith and the desire for Baptism (both explicit and implicit), have the same effect as the sacrament of Baptism, without being sacraments; for as the Catechism teaches: "The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament." [[u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u], no. 1258] [/quote]
I refrained from using the capital "B" which is in reference to the Sacramental Baptism. I used the lowercase "b" because I referred to baptism, that is, Baptism under the regular conditions, and baptism under extraordinary conditions (desire for example without the ability to be baptized, or martyrdom). From a Catholic standpoint, I was taught that this is the only standpoint in line with the Magisterium.

God bless,
Mikey

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 10:33 AM'] But I would say they are good odds for good kind loving people to exist among 6 million, or would you disagree? [/quote]
Among 2 people one maybe good. If they accepted Grace,, then they were saved by it. I don't think all of them went to hell. I don't think I can give you a head count. I don't think all of them went to heaven either. Both are extremes, and it would make the most sense that those Jews, like all other humans, faced God with what they had done, and their life, their hearts, etc. God would not leave out any detail, as He is perfeclty just, so I assume that going through that experience counted for something...

God bless,
Mikey

[jasJis]

Okay, time for a bad joke:


"Are Jews going to Hell?"
"Not if they can help it. They only sell retail there."

[Winchester]

I could not possibly go to hell for "being jew," because I'm me. This is a ridiculous question.

[Crusader_4]

Do Jews go to hell? Hmm ask King David and Abraham. We as humans are limited to the sacraments and the means which Christ has given us. However Christ is not. He has given us a path to follow it is best to heed to him lest we dash our foot against a stone.