Christians persecuted? In America?

[MC Just]

A book I want to get...

David Limbaugh:Persecution "How liberals are waging war against Christianity"



Persecution -- that's the name for it. Tolerance might be the highest virtue in our popular culture, but it doesn't often extend to Christians these days.

Christians are increasingly being driven from public life, denied their First Amendment rights, and even actively discriminated against for their beliefs.

In this relentless exposé of political correctness run amok, best-selling author David Limbaugh rips apart the liberal hypocrisy that condones selective mistreatment of Christians in the mainstream media, Hollywood, our schools and universities, and throughout our public life.

In Persecution you'll enter the hotly contested battle for the soul of our public schools. Here are appalling -- but true -- stories of how anti-Christian social engineers not only prohibit school prayer and forbid students from wearing Christian symbols, like a simple cross, but even expunge the real story of Christianity in America from history textbooks. Worse still, in the name of "diversity," "tolerance," "multiculturalism," and "sex education," the social engineers actively inculcate hatred of Christianity as ignorant, repressive, and offensive. Not exactly the agenda of most parents whose tax dollars support the public schools.

Looking honestly at the dominant influence of Christianity in America's colonial culture and schools, where the Bible was routinely used as a textbook, Limbaugh makes a compelling case that the education students receive today is not what the Founders would have endorsed. Indeed, they would have been outraged at what is taught -- and what the courts say -- in their name, under the pretext of the non-constitutional and woefully misunderstood phrase: "separation of church and state."

Limbaugh zeroes in on how activist judges misinterpret and misapply the Constitution to eliminate Christianity from American government and public life. He reveals a society-wide disinformation campaign that has successfully obscured, for many people, what the Constitution actually says about religious freedom. While allegedly promoting religious freedom, liberals actually suppress it.

Providing details of case after shocking case, Limbaugh demonstrates that the anti-Christian forces now controlling significant portions of our society aggressively target the slightest hint of public Christianity for discrimination, yet ardently encourage the spread of secular values -- including "alternative sexuality" and promiscuity.

Limbaugh cuts cleanly through this confusion and distortion, exploring the deeply held Christian faith of the Founding Fathers, and showing that Christianity and Judeo-Christian principles are essential -- and were recognized by the Founders as essential -- to the unique political liberties Americans enjoy.

Persecution is an indispensable tool to help Christians reclaim their right (and duty) to enter the political arena and to try to influence the course of this country. It helps every liberty-loving citizen to champion what America is supposed to be about-religious freedom.

Among the evidence presented here that those who hate Christianity are firmly in power:

* How the courts and the media establishment have established the modern idea of separation of Church and state, despite the fact that it's found nowhere in the Constitution or any other founding document!

* Chief Justice Rehnquist's ringing (but unsuccessful) argument proving that the Establishment Clause didn't require the public sector to be "insulated from all things which may have religious significance or origin"

* How the education establishment vigorously endorses and promotes values that most Christians find repugnant -- in violation of the Constitutional protection of free exercise of religion!

* Three false assumptions you have to make in order to accept the Supreme Court's argument that prayer in schools is unconstitutional

* Historians at America's best universities: obsessed with sex while busy purging all mention of Christianity from our history books

* The California public school that forced seventh grade students to pretend they were Muslims, pray in the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful, and chant "praise to Allah, Lord of Creation"

* Sex education in public schools: evidence that it has promoted, not prevented, sexual promiscuity among teenagers

* Six ways the media establishment has energetically promoted homosexuality as normal

* How colleges and universities regularly fire (or decline to hire) Christian professors -- and even Christian sports coaches

* Churches: how anti-Christian bureaucrats have targeted them using fire, safety, and zoning laws -- and even sicced the IRS on them

* California's state legislature: the law it passed allowing a teenage boy to report his foster parents for a civil-rights violation if they refused to let him dress like a girl

[MC Just]

"With passion and precision, David Limbaugh provides overwhelming evidence of discrimination against Christians in America. From the courtroom to the schoolroom to the newsroom, Persecution exposes the hypocrisy and bigotry of the secular, anti-Christian Left. Limbaugh's meticulously researched book is a devastating indictment of liberal intolerance -- and a call to arms for all true believers of religious liberty to reclaim their rightful place in the public square." -- MICHELLE MALKIN

"David Limbaugh brings a lawyer's mind and a Christian's heart to his subject. While Jesus said to expect persecution if we live for Him, that doesn't absolve the persecutors from responsibility for their hypocritical actions, especially when they claim to be the champions of tolerance, diversity, pluralism and academic freedom." -- CAL THOMAS

"At last -- some sense in the Church/State debate! In his great new book Persecution, David Limbaugh shows how liberals have undermined our Constitution and are waging undeclared war on the very people -- Americans of faith -- who have made America the beacon of freedom and justice that it is. Buy this book, read it, and send a copy to every politician, judge, and Supreme Court Justice you can find." -- SEAN HANNITY

"Often the people who clamor for tolerance are among the most intolerant people in our society. David Limbaugh documents this in his new book, Persecution -- in particular, the intolerance against Christians. This book is sorely needed in our day when the only 'acceptable' prejudice of our day is the bias against Christians." -- D. JAMES KENNEDY

[Melchisedec]

That book sounds like another conspiracy theory carp. Are christians being persecuted because they cannot control every facet of the government and media? Cmon, its so lame to say that. Christians hold the highest offices and power in America. Now there are actually people who represent different faiths and or no faiths, that want to make sure religion does not become policy in america. That would make it a form of a theocracy. Our four fathers made a point to prevent those very things. You can quell your fears, because no matter how many forces are pushing for a secular america, it wont ever happen. The majority will always remain faith based. But america will not be govern by your church either, and people like myself will do everything in our power to prevent that from ever happening.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 09:53 AM'] That book sounds like another conspiracy theory carp. Are christians being persecuted because they cannot control every facet of the government and media? Cmon, its so lame to say that. Christians hold the highest offices and power in America. Now there are actually people who represent different faiths and or no faiths, that want to make sure religion does not become policy in america. That would make it a form of a theocracy. Our four fathers made a point to prevent those very things. You can quell your fears, because no matter how many forces are pushing for a secular america, it wont ever happen. The majority will always remain faith based. But america will not be govern by your church either, and people like myself will do everything in our power to prevent that from ever happening. [/quote]
lol- It will happen.

[toledo_jesus]

the founding fathers were deists, I believe, and the Church doesn't even like America as a concept very much. The way it is now, no wonder. The climate of the 18th century was one of the triumph of reason, not of religion. It was only in the revivals of the 19th century that Americans of standing became religious.
There were a few Catholics back in the founding days, of course, and I don't think they were opposed to it. The Church wasn't overly fond of democracy and still isn't. The more I learn about democracy the less I like it myself. Benevolent dictatorship is the way to go.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 11 2005, 10:02 AM'] Benevolent dictatorship is the way to go. [/quote]
Still trying to come up with one

[Socrates]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 11 2005, 10:02 AM'] the founding fathers were deists, I believe, and the Church doesn't even like America as a concept very much. The way it is now, no wonder. The climate of the 18th century was one of the triumph of reason, not of religion. It was only in the revivals of the 19th century that Americans of standing became religious.
There were a few Catholics back in the founding days, of course, and I don't think they were opposed to it. The Church wasn't overly fond of democracy and still isn't. The more I learn about democracy the less I like it myself. Benevolent dictatorship is the way to go. [/quote]
Charles Carroll was a Catholic founder (he was the only Catholic to sign the Declaration of independence.)

Some of the founders were deists, others were Protestant Christian. They hardly agreed with each other on everything.


The benevolent dictatorship statement is silly (don't know if it was intended as a joke). There is no way to ensure that a dictatorship stays benevolent!
Most dictatorships have been far from benevolent!

[Phatmasser777]

Limbaugh..LOL Oy I'm sure his 'facts' will be spot on, just as spot on as O'reillys!

NEWS FLASH JUST:

OPEN YOUR EYES.

'CHRISTIAN' AMERICA KILLING MUSLIMS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Inquisition 21st Century American Style!

[Cam42]

Riggghhhhttt,

Because Sean Penn did such a bang up job over there....

Cam42

[MC Just]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Feb 19 2005, 05:39 AM'] Limbaugh..LOL Oy I'm sure his 'facts' will be spot on, just as spot on as O'reillys!

NEWS FLASH JUST:

OPEN YOUR EYES.

'CHRISTIAN' AMERICA KILLING MUSLIMS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Inquisition 21st Century American Style! [/quote]
Oh Please Muslims started out living by the sword why is it a surprise that they are dying by it? Read some history. Remeber "live by the sword, die by the sword" ? That is true ya know.

Edited February 19, 2005 by MC Just

[save ferris 101]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Feb 19 2005, 05:39 AM'] Limbaugh..LOL Oy I'm sure his 'facts' will be spot on, just as spot on as O'reillys!

NEWS FLASH JUST:

OPEN YOUR EYES.

'CHRISTIAN' AMERICA KILLING MUSLIMS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Inquisition 21st Century American Style! [/quote]
Didn't the article say DAVID, not Rush? Why can no one in this debate forum use their brains?

[argent_paladin]

While it is true that most of America is Christian, there is still persecution among the elites. I forget who said it but it is a great image: "America is like India ruled by Sweden", that is, America is like the world's most religious country (India) but its ruling elites more closely resemble the world's least religious country (Sweden). Try to go high in the world of universities with strong public Christian beliefs. Try it in journalism. Try it in the arts. There are definitely spheres of society that are all but closed off to people who are upfront about their Christianity. One could be a member of the communist party more easily than a practicing Catholic and get tenure at, say, UC Santa Cruz.
And about Christians killing Muslims around the world: the US freed Kuwait in 1991, protected the Bosnian Muslims from the Christian Serbs in the mid-1990s, intervened with humanitarian aid to the Muslim Somalis in the 90s and are liberating/democratizing Iraq today. Americans have freed and protected more Arab Muslims than any group in history.

BTW, I think you meant "CRUSADES 21st century American style" not Inquisition, since that had mainly to do with Catholics who had left the church or to crypto-Catholics who had converted but secretly practiced their old beliefs.

And yes, David Limbaugh is not related to Rush.

Battling ignorance.... one mind at a time.

[save ferris 101]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 19 2005, 08:25 PM'] While it is true that most of America is Christian, there is still persecution among the elites. I forget who said it but it is a great image: "America is like India ruled by Sweden", that is, America is like the world's most religious country (India) but its ruling elites more closely resemble the world's least religious country (Sweden). Try to go high in the world of universities with strong public Christian beliefs. Try it in journalism. Try it in the arts. There are definitely spheres of society that are all but closed off to people who are upfront about their Christianity. One could be a member of the communist party more easily than a practicing Catholic and get tenure at, say, UC Santa Cruz.
And about Christians killing Muslims around the world: the US freed Kuwait in 1991, protected the Bosnian Muslims from the Christian Serbs in the mid-1990s, intervened with humanitarian aid to the Muslim Somalis in the 90s and are liberating/democratizing Iraq today. Americans have freed and protected more Arab Muslims than any group in history.

BTW, I think you meant "CRUSADES 21st century American style" not Inquisition, since that had mainly to do with Catholics who had left the church or to crypto-Catholics who had converted but secretly practiced their old beliefs.

And yes, David Limbaugh is not related to Rush.

Battling ignorance.... one mind at a time. [/quote]
Your whole first paragraph was just chock full of glittering generalities. If no one could go through college while having strong Christian beliefs, half of the people in college wouldn't be there. But yet, there they are, so you are wrong. College isn't closed of to people who are upfront about their Christianity, you are just seeing a couple of bad examples and applying it to everything, because you think that if it is true in one place, and if people complain and moan enough about Christian bashing, then it must be true. It's not. Also, you mentioned one college, one that I have never even heard of no less.

And I'm not even going to get into your paragraph about our interventions in the middle east.

[argent_paladin]

I was referring to getting a job as a professor. Did you honestly think that when I said "high in universities" I meant just a college undergrad? [color=red][edited by flower: lack of charity][/color] I am a graduate student and I am going to get my Ph.D. My mother is a professor and department chair. I have been around higher education all my life and finding a professor who is open about his/her faith is very, very rare. Think about it. If eighty percent of Americans are Christian, what percentage of professors are? And then what percent let anyone know about it?
I was making an argument about the "elites". Yes, you can graduate from college and be Christian, you can even be a lecturerer at podunk u. But Christians are very, very underrepresented on the faculties of Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Yale, Dartmouth, UC Berkeley (heard of those?)
Christians are also heavily underrepresented at the NYTimes, the Washington Post, NBCABCCBS, etc. Those are facts. They are also heavily underrepresented in the world of fine arts, classical music, PBS, Arts foundations, etc. My brother is graduating from one of the most prestegious art colleges in the country and "persecution" is not an exaggeration to describe what he has gone through. Come back when you have some facts.

[save ferris 101]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 19 2005, 09:00 PM'] I was referring to getting a job as a professor. Did you honestly think that when I said "high in universities" I meant just a college undergrad? Or perhaps you thought of your own experinces getting high in college? I am a graduate student and I am going to get my Ph.D. My mother is a professor and department chair. I have been around higher education all my life and finding a professor who is open about his/her faith is very, very rare. Think about it. If eighty percent of Americans are Christian, what percentage of professors are? And then what percent let anyone know about it?
I was making an argument about the "elites". Yes, you can graduate from college and be Christian, you can even be a lecturerer at podunk u. But Christians are very, very underrepresented on the faculties of Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Yale, Dartmouth, UC Berkeley (heard of those?)
Christians are also heavily underrepresented at the NYTimes, the Washington Post, NBCABCCBS, etc. Those are facts. They are also heavily underrepresented in the world of fine arts, classical music, PBS, Arts foundations, etc. My brother is graduating from one of the most prestegious art colleges in the country and "persecution" is not an exaggeration to describe what he has gone through. Come back when you have some facts. [/quote]
Why didn't you say some of that in the first post?

Also, almost all, in fact, actually, all of them, are either in California or are Ivy League schools. That comes as no suprise to me, because they are very liberal. And the newspapers don't surprise me either, because all that you mentioned were liberal news sources, and why would they hire someone who doesn't have the same views as them?

Also, I have never gotten high, nice try at being witty though

[argent_paladin]

Ah, but not only are they "liberal" schools, they are the "elite" schools. So, if you want to go to the best schools for graduate study (and you need to if you want to be a professor at a good school) you have to hide your Catholicism. Even a good school in a borderline state like University of Michigan, or University of Wisconsin or even University of Texas in a red state are notoriously liberal, and thus very anti-Christian. It has nothing to do with location, but rather that the cultural elites are anti-Christian bigots. The only elites where this is not true is business (because money trumps bigotry) and politics (where they need the votes of the unwashed Christian masses).
The newspapers, too, are simply the newspapers with the highest reputations, where the best journalists go. I wasn't trying to chose liberal institutions, but the most elite. That they all are liberal is simply more proof of the liberal anti-Christian bias that the elites have. Schools like Notre Dame or papers like the Washington Times are exceptions that prove the rule.
The higher you get, the harder it is to be openly Christian.

[jezic]

stop already ........

Don't turn this into a fight.

The truth is Christians are persecuted everywhere. Yes, the laws and courts and media working against us is persecution.

Actually now more people are killed for their faith than ever before.

A better course of action would be what are you doing to stop this?

Do you pray for those people daily? Do you spread word about the persecuted church? Do you consider joining their cause for the good of mankind?

[argent_paladin]

jezic brings up an interesting point. I am very hesitant to use the term "persecution" because I think what American Christians go through pales in comparison to Christians in China or North Korea or Africa and most who are persecuting them are not "liberals". Denying a Christian professor tenure is surely discrimination, but not persecution.
Christians are not getting martyred in America. Most especially not by liberals. So I think that David Limbaugh's thesis is a bit exaggerated. Persecution to me means like the early Roman martyrs, or under Nazi Germany, not in Bush's America, when the majority of Congress and the Supreme court are Christians.
And what did you mean by "Do you consider joining their cause for the good of mankind?"
If their "cause" is Christianity (and I can't imagine it is anything else", then I joined that "cause" decades ago. And I appreciate your concern for my prayer life, but I do pray for those who are persecuted for their faith.

And what am I doing? I am studying philosophy and theology full time so that I can eventually teach future priests and religious about the Church, about Sacred Scripture and about the faith. That's what I'm doing. I also go to Africa in the summers on missionary work and studied for the priesthood for four years before leaving last fall. Both sides of my family Polish and Korean, have undergone tremendous religious persecution. I certainly do spread the word and I am a bit offended that you thought that I am all talk and no action. What do you think I was just doing? Exposing discrimination among American elites is necessary for "spreading the word".

[jezic]

Well i didn't mean you specifically, but that is good to hear.

Christians are not being killed in America. That is true to an extent, however they are being silenced and denied rights. The right of the minority is ruining the majority.

persecution is found in many forms all over the world. Some of them involve martyrdom some involve the culture and society. it is still all persecution.

Just because we aren't now, doesn't mean it can't happen. I think that it will, soon ......

[AtheistAlex]

Christians, persecuted by who? Other Christians?
I have never understood the reasoning for this inferiority complex, this paranoia among many of the theistic persuasion, not only Christians, but Muslims, Jews, (well...) etc.

Theists, esp. those that are Republican, have a lock on all the forms of American government, other than local, and the culture as the country is currently going into a socially conservative turn. By this, I mean that the so-called elites, the ones shaping the current society, are conservative Christians. Who is persecuting the Christian faith?