Christians persecuted? In America?

[argent_paladin]

" Christians, persecuted by who?"
In a word: you.

Actually, of course, it is much more complicated. But if you think that Christians cannot be discriminated against in America what about prayer in schools? Christmas dispays? Catholic health plans being forced to offer contraception? Traditional Christianity has never really been fashionable or in the majority. Atheists have a disproportionate influence in our country. Though a very small percentage of the population, they are influential in the top universities which are critical for our countries future. They also are influential in the legal profession.
Yes, Christians and conservatives are clawing their way back, but they still have a long way to go. If you think that conservative christians are in power, then why the gay marriage debate? Even ten years ago, it wasn't on the radar screen and now it is on the verge of becoming legal in many states (or already is). This is even though most theists are against it. And those that aren't, well, how much different are they than atheists if their belief in God doesn't shape their beliefs or behavior?
I think the number of real Christians is quite small, far less than the majority. Perhaps only 20% of Americans go to church weekly, which is about the bare minimum of involvement for a practicing, observant Christian. So, we can see why church-going Christians are truly in the minority and thus have real reason to fear persecution.

for percentages see: [url="http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/RIN%20Vol.1No.2/Church_lies_polling.htm"]http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/RIN%20...ies_polling.htm[/url]

[Paladin D]

One can argue that some of those things on the list are only offensive towards Christians, therefore we shouldn't enforce our beliefs. Though I'm curious, what about those on the list that actually discriminate Christians? Also, whatever happened to no religion in schools (as in public promotion by the school)? Kids dressed up and practicing the Muslim religion?

We aren't supposed to promote Christianity, but Islam is fine? I don't get it.


[b]Note:[/b] I'm not against schools that help educate student of different religions, but having children dress up and actually say Muslim prayers and other practices crosses the boundary of what secular humanists tend to scream [b]"Seperation of Church and State!"[/b].

Edited February 20, 2005 by Paladin D

[argent_paladin]

I take it back. Americans are being killed for their faith in America. I firmly believe that the Coptic Christian family in New Jersey was killed by Muslim fanatics. They were killed in the same manner as the Quran describes for the killing of infidels. See:
[url="http://www.aina.org/news/20050216084557.htm"]http://www.aina.org/news/20050216084557.htm[/url]

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Feb 19 2005, 09:35 AM'] Oh Please Muslims started out living by the sword why is it a surprise that they are dying by it? Read some history. Remeber "live by the sword, die by the sword" ? That is true ya know. [/quote]
Good justification for genocide. *claps*

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Feb 20 2005, 06:04 AM'] Good justification for genocide. *claps* [/quote]
A universal rule when it comes to online debating: constant use of sarcasm ruins your credibility.

[Socrates]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 19 2005, 08:25 PM']

And yes, David Limbaugh is not related to Rush.

[/quote]
David and Rush are brothers, in fact.

[curtins]

alright here it is:
there are different types of persecution- physical like in china and africa where christians are killed and beaten but there IS persecution of Christians in america but its a different type of persecution- its where they are being silenced most especially in schools- just look around they have to take out "under God" in the pledge- and they cant have the ten commandments in courthouses. Theres persecution of organized religion in this country- but more specifically christianity. Its in the media most deffinatly- just turn on the tv and you'll see. My freind went to public schools and they said that in sex ed talks they'd say have all the sex you want just use a condom- now that is just plain bad wrong and anti Christian. phatmasser777 said Americans are killing muslims all over the world-- Im sorry did 9/11 NOT happen??? Idk if you are american or not but I am a very proud one and for you to just ignore the 3000 people that died 70 miles from my house really ticks me off. And thats just to name one of the MANY attacks carried out by al quada (bombing of the uss cole, the embassys, etc) not to mention frequent attacks by terrorists in Iraq and in Israel against Jews. But for some reason you dont want to open your eyes to the horrible deeds these savages are commiting all around the world to all people- you are intent on saying everything bad you can about america and how dare we try and deffend ourselves from these terrorists and how dare we try and go after them to prevent another 9/11 or worse. How dare we. Lets all encourage and defend these poor oppressed women and children killers and the defenseless beheaders- yeah lets do that. Lets ignore the millions America has liberated, the lives it has sacrificed for the better of the world, the money it has sarcrificed for the better of the world. Lets ignore all that and stand up for poor mister osama bin laden.

im sorry im just quite furious right now

[argent_paladin]

Tho only ones trying to commit genocide on Muslims are other muslims. Saddam alone tried to wipe out the Marsh Arabs, the Kurds and waged a bloody war with Iran. No one has ever killed more Muslims than Saddam Hussein. Americans are not trying to kill all muslims. Some americans are muslim. They ahve supported many muslim countries and have allied themselves with muslim nations. Russia (in Checnya), China (in Uigar), India (in Kashmir), the Phillipines, etc are all killing far more muslims than America. France bans heaedscarves in school. Most european countries won't allow Muslims to immigrate. Turkey, Egeypt, Saudi Arabia, etc won't let Muslims form their own political parties that are based on Islam. But America lets in Muslims as immigrants, it allows Muslims to form their own parties, vote, express their religion freely, etc. If the world looked more like america, millions of muslims would be beter off.

[Phatmasser777]

Bull Argent.

[argent_paladin]

I am sorry if the facts don't fit your worldview. But facts are facts. It just doesn't make sense to you that Americans are donating billions of dollars to help Muslims they don't even know across the world in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in the world). At the same time, Muslims are actively killing fellow muslims in Iraq (terrorists there kill 50 native Iraqis for every American they kill), Dafur (Sudan) and other places.
These are all documented facts.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 22 2005, 06:36 AM'] I am sorry if the facts don't fit your worldview. But facts are facts. It just doesn't make sense to you that Americans are donating billions of dollars to help Muslims they don't even know across the world in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in the world). At the same time, Muslims are actively killing fellow muslims in Iraq (terrorists there kill 50 native Iraqis for every American they kill), Dafur (Sudan) and other places.
These are all documented facts. [/quote]
Maybe you need to learn about Mother Theresa, and you might understand why its worth to help people, regardless of their religion.

[Melchisedec]

I dont see how in the age of the bush administration you could say 'christians are being persecuted'. Thats just stupid. How can the majority of america, who controll most of the power be being persecuted. Its absurd. The fact that a fundie baptist and his friends control everything might not bode well for catholics. But to an Atheist, its the same carp. You are being persecuted because you are not allowed to teach creationism in school? because you have to take away the ten commands statue. That is a very weak persecution. Maybe you need to look at real persecution and wake up!

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 22 2005, 06:36 AM'] I am sorry if the facts don't fit your worldview. But facts are facts. It just doesn't make sense to you that Americans are donating billions of dollars to help Muslims they don't even know across the world in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in the world). At the same time, Muslims are actively killing fellow muslims in Iraq (terrorists there kill 50 native Iraqis for every American they kill), Dafur (Sudan) and other places.
These are all documented facts. [/quote]
Excellent posts Argent!


It is truly amazing how that completely fits with the information we've researched in my Middle East history class at my liberal college.

As for persecution of Christians, well, sometimes it's rather blanlant, but mostly it is the underlying current. It's not terribly PC to be Christian right now, so the media is playing on everything that [i]isn't[/i] Christian. It may or may not pass. No use losing sleep over it though.

[curtins]

mel-

there is a form of persecution of christians going on right now. People may call themselves "christian" but do they really follow the teachings of christ??? Even if the majority of America is "Christian" I truly doubt that all them are practicing and beleiving and following. Just look at all the evil that is going on in the world- is that not a persecution of Christians???

[argent_paladin]

Mel,
I was merely using the amazing generosity of the (christian) west towards the (mostly muslim) victims of the tsunami to counter phatmasser777's claim of genocide (I assume Christian genocide of Muslims). The facts show that rather than genocide (killing a race), we are doing the opposite, geno-aid (helping a race). I am not at all criticizing the people who give.

and to support the contention that Christians are being persecuted:

1. Hannukah, Kwanzaa, Ramadan displays are fine in most schools and public buildings, but even a Christmas tree or Santa Clause (only distantly related to Jesus Christ) are banned or frowned upon.

2. Christians are heavily underrepresented in the faculty and administrations of elite universities.

3. Christian organizations are being forced to go against their religious beliefs (in spite of the first amendment) because the law requires them to hire practicing homosexuals, offer contraception in their health plans, etc. Tax money goes to abortion clinics. These all violate the right to practice religion freely.

4. As I said before, only 20-30% of americans go to church weekly. That is a minority and a persecuted one.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='curtins' date='Feb 22 2005, 04:20 PM'] mel-

there is a form of persecution of christians going on right now. People may call themselves "christian" but do they really follow the teachings of christ??? Even if the majority of America is "Christian" I truly doubt that all them are practicing and beleiving and following. Just look at all the evil that is going on in the world- is that not a persecution of Christians??? [/quote]
You are extremely vague when you say persecutions. I dont see any persecutions going on. I can't tell a christian from a christian who is not a true christian. Because each of these christians, are telling me that the other is not a true christian. What I see is christianity trying to reinstate itself in areas of the government and there is opposition to that. But on the other hand, the people in power are sympathetic to their cause. Where you see persecution, I only see small battles being waged against the secular aspects of society and christians. Things like creationism being taught in public schools.
That to me is not persecution, but an idealogical battle. If you are muslim in america, thats persecution. If you are christian in iraq, thats persecution. If you are a christian in america, thats the norm.

[AtheistAlex]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 22 2005, 04:26 PM'] Mel,
I was merely using the amazing generosity of the (christian) west towards the (mostly muslim) victims of the tsunami to counter phatmasser777's claim of genocide (I assume Christian genocide of Muslims). The facts show that rather than genocide (killing a race), we are doing the opposite, geno-aid (helping a race). I am not at all criticizing the people who give.

and to support the contention that Christians are being persecuted:

1. Hannukah, Kwanzaa, Ramadan displays are fine in most schools and public buildings, but even a Christmas tree or Santa Clause (only distantly related to Jesus Christ) are banned or frowned upon.

2. Christians are heavily underrepresented in the faculty and administrations of elite universities.

3. Christian organizations are being forced to go against their religious beliefs (in spite of the first amendment) because the law requires them to hire practicing homosexuals, offer contraception in their health plans, etc. Tax money goes to abortion clinics. These all violate the right to practice religion freely.

4. As I said before, only 20-30% of americans go to church weekly. That is a minority and a persecuted one. [/quote]
First, your first reply to my question was, I believe saying that [i]I, myself[/i] persecuted Christians, without any listings of a pattern of persecutory behavior I have exhibited, making it more of a claim and less of an answer. So, yeah, that was pretty low, really.

Now for this post, claim by claim.

1. As a black man, I had [u]never[/u] in my life seen a large public display of any Kwanzaa signs of any sort, and so I would have the right to call myself persecuted by the Christians who put there Merry Christmas signs up in [u]my[/u] school and around town? No, because displaying a greeting for one's holiday is one's own responsibility, given you have the legal right to. If the government at any level told you you could not put a X-Mas sign up on [u]private[/u] property, then there would a real problem.

2. How is this true? What study did you get this from? Blacks, like I said before, are extremely underrepresented throughout just about all universities, (other than black colleges) but we are not neccessarily persecuted. If your claim here is true, how does that make Christians persecuted?

3. Beliefs are internal, right? So, in reality, you don't have to go against them at all, what you have to do is follow the law. The law states that people, so as [i]not[/i] to [u]persecuted[/u] must be given an equality of opportunity. This means offering homosexuals a chance at a job, just as you would have to at least give a willing disabled person or a woman a [u]chance[/u] at the job. That's to create a "more perfect union". Abortions and contraceptives are being phased out by the Republican Congress anyway, so how are Christians being persecuted? Also, these are for the health and welfare of the people, I think that would be the sort of thing someone with convictions to aid humanity would be happy to support.

Lastly for this part, even if these are truly against Christian beliefs, then how in the world does that persecute Christians?

4. No, no, my friend. If that stat is true, that's a minority, but that does not mean the other Americans who identify as Christian are not so. I mean, seriously, how can you judge who is a "real" Christian and who is not? And then you say "and a persecuted one." I thought this was supposed to be a point to prove your fellow Christians are being persecuted, not just an empty claim of such.

Please tell me where I'm wrong here, but it does not sound like you have much of a case here.

Edited February 22, 2005 by AtheistAlex

[curtins]

muslims are not persecuted in america. That is nieave anti american rehtoric.

How about those Christians in philidelphia- were they not persecuted for saying homosexuallity is wrong?? if you call that a "minor idiological battle" thats quite sad.

the truth is christians are being persecuted everywhere- in some places more than others- more harshly in some places- in different ways in some places- but there is persecution of Christians all over the world.

[AtheistAlex]

From what I hear, this "Repent America" has been making that incident out to be a Jim Crow from of hatred. Never mind that out of the eleven people protesting, a meager four or five were arrested.

Never mind that they were disobeying orders from the police, which will get one arrested.

And never mind that the Christians won't get any actual penalties for it, as well.

[curtins]

disobeying the police- and exactly what was so horribly wrong that these protesters were doing that got them yelled at by the cops and arrested??? They were preaching the Bible- preaching the TRUTH to those opposing the truth- and they get yelled at by the cops for this and then arrested. If you dont call that persecution idk what it is. Its because our society is so caught up in the homosexual agenda and when fearless wariors reject that- they get thrown in jail.- that my freinds is persecution at its finest.