Roy Schoeman's Book: "Salvation is from the Jews"

[james]

This is a response to a request from another forum member from another thread on the topic of Opus Dei.

I refer to Schoeman's promotional Zenit interview for his book, "Salvation is From the Jews" which can be referenced at "Association of Hebrew Catholics" website.

[url="http://hebrewcatholic.org/HCLives/Schoeman-Roy/zenit-schoemanin.html"]http://hebrewcatholic.org/HCLives/Schoeman...schoemanin.html[/url]

[quote][b]Q: What inspired you to write this book?[/b]

Schoeman: It seems obvious to me, as a Jew who has entered the Catholic Church, that the Church is nothing else but "post Messianic" Judaism ­ that is, the continuation of Judaism after the coming of the Jewish Messiah, now opened up to all peoples.[/quote]

This statement perpetuates a confusion which surrounds discussion of all things relating to Jews and Judaism.

Rabbinic Judaism, a tradition which is based in the Talmud and Kabballah, is something entirely different than the religion of the Israelites which is based in the Old Testament. These two religions are not synonomous.

Christianity is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Rabbinic Judaism is based in the Talmud and Kabbalah which were written centuries after Christ's death and ressurection. The assertion that Christianity is a continuation of rabbinic Judaism is false.

Given that this is the premise upon which Schoeman's book is based, the entire book is suspect.

Edited February 11, 2005 by james

[Cam42]

From your same link,

[quote]Q: What can be done to repair the relationship and clear up misunderstandings between Jews and Christians? How have the Second Vatican Council and the papacy of John Paul II aided in this process?

Schoeman: In the long run, any such repair must be based on mutual respect and truth, without a papering over of differences and without infidelity to one's own beliefs. I hope that my book, in presenting to both Jews and Christians an extremely positive view of Judaism, yet one set entirely within the context of Catholic doctrine, has the potential to help in some small way.

Our Holy Father, of course, has helped enormously, in the many gestures of love and respect that he has shown the Jewish community, and in his many statements expressing respect and reverence for the Jewish religion and people, even referring to them as "elder brothers" in the faith.

The beginning of the current epoch of extremely positive Church teaching with respect to Jews and Judaism began, of course, with the Second Vatican Council and its teachings in "Nostra Aetate" and "Lumen Gentium."[/quote]

Gee, sounds really familiar.....have you read Nostra Aetate yet?

Cam42

[james]

You may respond to my point at any time.

[Socrates]

[quote name='james' date='Feb 11 2005, 04:09 PM'] This is a response to a request from another forum member from another thread on the topic of Opus Dei.

I refer to Schoeman's promotional Zenit interview for his book, "Salvation is From the Jews" which can be referenced at "Association of Hebrew Catholics" website.

[url="http://hebrewcatholic.org/HCLives/Schoeman-Roy/zenit-schoemanin.html"]http://hebrewcatholic.org/HCLives/Schoeman...schoemanin.html[/url]



This statement perpetuates a confusion which surrounds discussion of all things relating to Jews and Judaism.

Rabbinic Judaism, a tradition which is based in the Talmud and Kabballah, is something entirely different than the religion of the Israelites which is based in the Old Testament. These two religions are not synonomous.

Christianity is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Rabbinic Judaism is based in the Talmud and Kabbalah which were written centuries after Christ's death and ressurection. The assertion that Christianity is a continuation of rabbinic Judaism is false.

Given that this is the premise upon which Schoeman's book is based, the entire book is suspect. [/quote]
He doesn't say that Christianity is a continuation "rabbinic Judaism" or based on the Talmud or Kaballah.

It is plain that all he is saying is that Christianity is the fulfillment of Old Testament Judaism, the religion of Israel, Moses, and the prophets.

Enough of these silly and scandalous insinuations! Give it a rest already!

Gosh!

[crusader1234]

Totally Socrates

ps - most of the Talmud and parts of the Kabbalah were around far before Jesus, however they were only recorded later on with the start of rabbinic Judaism due to the fact that without the Temple the oral laws would have been lost

[james]

Judaism is the religion of the Pharisees. It's the tradition of the elders which Christ specifically condemned. To state that Christianity is a continuation of the Old Testament is correct. To state that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism is false.

[quote]"After the conflicts with Rome (A.D. 66-135) Pharisaism became practically synonymous with Judaism."  (Catholic Encyclopedia)[/quote]

[quote]"With the destruction of the Temple ...Henceforth, Jewish life was regulated by the teachings of the Pharisees.

Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism & the life & thought of the Jew for all the future." (Jewish Encyclopedia)[/quote]

Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism: the tradition of the Pharisees. In fact, Judaism is inimical to Christianity. This is more than sufficiently evidenced in New Testament scripture.

Edited February 11, 2005 by james

[Niccolò]

[quote]Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism: the tradition of the Pharisees.[/quote]

Indeed Christianity is not a continuation of current Rabbinical Judaism which evolved out of the Pharisaic tradition within Judaism. However, it must be remembered that the Pharisees were merely one group within Judaism at the time of Jesus, the others including the Essenes and Sadducees.

The author's point is that Christianity is a continuation of ancient Judaism based around the Temple in Jerusalem, a fact which cannot be questioned (one need only look at the mass, which combines the passover meal with synagogue bible readings as well as a holy sacrifice).

[quote]In fact, Judaism is inimical to Christianity.[/quote]

I would not call Judaism inimical to Christianity, but Judaism does not contain the complete revelation of God.

[Cam42]

[quote]Rabbinic Judaism is based in the Talmud and Kabbalah which were written centuries after Christ's death and ressurection.[/quote]

You are incorrect.

Here are Schoeman's words:
[quote]The first was the one necessitated by the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The entire sacramental system of Judaism as laid out in the Old Testament was dependent on animal sacrifices that required the existence of the Temple in Jerusalem. When the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 such sacrifices were no longer possible, and so the Jews were left with no way to purify themselves or atone for sins. Thus the entire system "broke down". In response to this crisis, the leading Rabbis convened in nearby Jamnia and redefined the sacramental system of Judaism, replacing the role of animal sacrifice with good works, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, etc. This revision of Judaism is known as "Rabbinic Judaism" as opposed to the former "Temple Judaism", and serves as the foundation for the Judaism that still exists today. (The Journey Home; 10 Jan 2005)[/quote]

That would not be centuries, but about 40 years.

Schoeman goes on to say:
[quote]Probably the greatest good that has resulted is the diminution of some negative stereotypes held by some on both sides, and the recognition of the goodwill, earnestness, and love of God shared by genuinely religious Jews and genuinely religious Catholics. There has also been a gratifying increase in the appreciation Catholics have for Judaism and the Hebrew scriptures. The Jewish side has come to understand that, rather than having contempt for Judaism, genuine Catholicism holds it in the highest regard as the religion and people into which God incarnated. (The Journey Home; 10 Jan 2005)[/quote]

Finally (for this post).....why don't you finish the quote that Schoeman states?

It says:
[quote]We also know that the fullness of God's written revelation to the Jews in the Old Testament has been confirmed and adopted in its entirety by Christianity worldwide and the salvation of all of mankind came about through the Jews -- Jesus himself said in John 4:22 that "salvation is from the Jews," hence, the title of the book -- and the Jews in fact succeeded in their God-given task of bringing that salvation.

Also Christian Scripture also suggests, for instance in Romans 11, that the unique importance of the Jews in the economy of salvation will last through all of this world's existence, until the Second Coming.[/quote]

How is he suspect? There is no mention of Talmud. And he quotes NT scripture.

Again, see my first post, Schoeman agrees with my assertion from another thread.

Cam42

[Guest Eremite]

Judaism is not just a religion, but a people. The seed of Abraham exists even today. And while they are ignorant of the Messiah, and while they may not worship as their fathers did, they are the seed of Abraham nontheless, and according to St. Paul are "beloved of God for the sake of their forefathers".

And contrary to what James says, not only is Christianity (Catholicism, to be specific) a continuation of Judaism, but moreso, it IS Judaism. It is the culmination of the succession of covenants begun by God in Adam and finalized in Christ.

[quote]To state that Christianity is a continuation of the Old Testament is correct. To state that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism is false.[/quote]

I assume you're Protestant? This statement superimposes into the Old Testament the same error Protestantism imposes on the New Testament, namely, that a book represents the finality and fullness of all that God has given us. Judaism was so much more than the Old Testament. Have fun trying to reenact a temple sacrifice with Leviticus alone.

Edited February 12, 2005 by Eremite

[Guest Eremite]

And before we go off on tirades against Jews. let's consider words of wisdom from Scripture and Papal sources.

"They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 9)

"In respect to election, [Jews] are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11)

"Beneath an appearance of piety, [the Flagellants] set their hands to cruel and impious works, shedding the blood of Jews, whom Christian piety accept and sustain." (Clement VI)

"Anti-Semitism...is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we are all Semites." (Pius XI)

"I am only the Vicar of Christ, but [Jews] are his very kith and kin." (Pius XII)

[Cam42]

Couldn't have said it better myself. We are on the same page Eremite.

Cam42

[james]

[quote name='Cam42'][quote name='James']Rabbinic Judaism is based in the Talmud and Kabbalah which were written centuries after Christ's death and ressurection.[/quote]

You are incorrect. [/quote]

The Mishna of the Talmud was not canonized until the third century. The Gemara was canonized in the sixth century. If you'd like further details about the how the Talmud was assembled you can find them here:

[url="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/talmud_&_mishna.html"]http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...d_&_mishna.html[/url]

[url="http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=32&letter=T&search=talmud#141"]http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...arch=talmud#141[/url]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14435b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14435b.htm[/url]

The earliest book of the Kabbalah, the Sefer Yetzirah, was not written until the tenth century.

My point still stands. Judaism is based in the Talmud and Kabbalah which were not written until after Christ's death and ressurection. Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism.[/quote]

Maybe your Christianity isn't. But ours is.

[Cam42]

James,

I will respond in kind and time to your statement.

However, I thought that this thread was to discuss the book by Roy Schoeman. I have given exetensive quotes to his position.

You still hang on the Talmud. Again, have you actually read the book?

I am starting to wonder.

Cam42

[james]

[quote name='eremite'][quote name='James']Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism[/quote].



Maybe your Christianity isn't. But ours is. [/quote]

[quote name='eremite']And contrary to what James says, not only is Christianity (Catholicism, to be specific) a continuation of Judaism, but moreso, it IS Judaism.[/quote]


Eremite, you confirm my worst fears about the effects that the Hebrew roots movement is having. I can only assume that you haven't studied Judaism and are only repeating something that you've heard someone else say.

Catholicism is Judaism?

How does this passage from the Kabbalah figure into your "Catholicsim is Judaism" theory?:

[quote]"From the side of idolatry Shabbethaj is called Lilleth, mixed dung, on account of the filth mixed from all kinds of dirt and worms, into which they throw dead dogs and dead asses, the suns of Esau and Ishmeal, [b]and there Jesus and Mohammed, who are dead dogs, are buried among them[/b]." Zohar III 282a, Kabbalah[/quote]

Does this not place Pope Clement VIII's eternal condemnation of Jewish texts in it's proper perspective?

[quote]"The impious Talmudic, Cabalistic and other wicked books of the Jews are hereby entirely condemned and they must always remain condemned and prohibited and this law must be perpetuallv observed." Pope Clement VIII[/quote]

Edited February 12, 2005 by james

[Cam42]

From one of your sources that you cite:

[quote]Yet the ever-varying conditions of life called for new ordinances, and these were decreed in accordance with the needs of the time and the special cases to be determined. There were thus formed a traditional law and custom orally transmitted. Every decree of this kind (halakha), if it had existed from time immemorial and nothing further could be said in regard to its origin, was called a law given to Moses on Mount Sinai. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1910)[/quote]

So, according to the Catholic Encylopedia, the Talmud has its origins in Mosaic times.

[quote]The Mishna of the Talmud was not canonized until the third century.[/quote]

Canonized is the wrong word, it was codified, but nevertheless, because that was the codification, that doesn't mean that the writings didn't exist from the time of the destruction of the temple. It is simply in the third century when the books were brought together.

I also assume that we are only speaking of the Babylonian and not the Palestinian Talmud? I asked this early on in another thread and you never answered. I would contend that the Palestinian Talmud probably existed in some form from close to AD 70 onward.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
[quote]Yerushalmi has not been preserved in its entirety; large portions of it were entirely lost at an early date,while other parts exist only in fragments. (Jewish Encyclopedia)[/quote]

[quote]Linguistically, the Palestinian Talmud is Aramaic, in so far as its framework (like the elucidations of the mishnaic text by the members of the academies and the amoraic discussions connected with them) is redacted in that language; the greater portion of the terminology is in like manner Aramaic. (Jewish Encyclopedia)[/quote]

These quotes would seem to support my position of age as well as Schoeman's.


And from your first website listed:
[quote]The rabbis of Palestine edited their discussions of the Mishna about the year 400: Their work became known as the Palestinian Talmud (in Hebrew, Talmud Yerushalmi, which literally means "Jerusalem Talmud"). (Jewish Virtual Library)[/quote]

The impotice of this would assume that the writings were in existence before the 3rd century, if that is when they were codified.

Even if this were not the case, we know the teachings were known for centuries before, even if not written down. But the resistance doesn't mean that they were not written down, just that it was resisted.

Again your first website:
[quote]This decline in the number of knowledgeable Jews seems to have been a decisive factor in Rabbi Judah the Prince's decision around the year 200 C.E. to record in writing the Oral Law. For centuries, Judaism's leading rabbis had resisted writing down the Oral Law. (Jewish Virtual Library)[/quote]

Thanks for the ammo. I will use whatever you give me. I appreciate your help in proving my points. Any other websites you'd like to post?

Cam42

[james]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 12 2005, 01:12 AM']



So, according to the Catholic Encylopedia, the Talmud has its origins in Mosaic times.



[/quote]
You misunderstand. Judaics claim that an oral tradition was handed down from Moses and Abraham which was later recorded in the Talmud and then the Kabbalah. The statement you took from the Catholic Encyclopedia is merely stating the Orthodox Jewish position. That would have been clear if you included the following sentence in your quote:

[quote]...for orthodox Judaism of today it is an article of faith that Moses, at the same time that he received the written law recorded in the Pentateuch, also received detailed explanations of the different laws, which were handed down by tradition as oral law.[/quote]


While Orthodox Jews may believe this to be true, the Catholic church has never recognized it as being true.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on "Kabbalah:"

[quote]Of course, the Book of Creation [Sepher Yetzirah, Kabbalah] does not go back to Abraham, as has been claimed by many Kabbalists. Its ascription by others to Rabbi Akiba (d. A.D. 120) is also a matter of controversy. With regard to the Zohar, its compilation is justly referred to a Spanish Jew, Moses of Leon (d. 1305), while some of its elements seem to be of a much greater antiquity.[/quote]

This oral tradition did not come from Moses or Abraham, it was a man made tradition based on didactic reasoning used as a means of circumventing Biblical law. This is why Christ condemned this tradition and called the Pharisees who practiced it hypocrites.

Could this madness, in your opinion, have been given to Moses by God?:

[quote name='Babylonian Talmud' date=' Tractate Sanhedrin, folio 54b']Our Rabbis taught: In the case of a male child, a young one is not regarded as on a par with an old one; but a young beast is treated as an old one.23 

What is meant by this? — Rab said: Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that. Samuel said: Pederasty with a child below three years is not treated as with a child above that.24 

What is the basis of their dispute? — Rab maintains that only he who is able to engage in sexual intercourse, may, as the passive subject of pederasty throw guilt [upon the active offender]; whilst he who is unable to engage in sexual intercourse cannot be a passive subject of pederasty [in that respect].25 

But Samuel maintains: Scripture writes, [And thou shalt not lie with mankind] as with the lyings of a woman.26

[u]Footnotes:[/u]

24. I.e., [b]Rab makes nine years the minimum; but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is incurred. Samuel makes three the minimum.[/b]

25. At nine years a male attains sexual matureness.

26. Lev. XVIII, 22. [b]Thus the point of comparison is the sexual matureness of woman, which is reached at the age of three[/b].[/quote]

Does this not place pope Clement VIII's condemnation of the Talmud and Kabbalah in it's proper perspective?

Edited February 12, 2005 by james

[Cam42]

What does this have to do with Roy Schoeman again?

[quote]You misunderstand.[/quote]

No, I think that I got it pretty close. It's origins, as I stated, were rooted in Mosaic times. The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith seems to agree.

[quote]The laws contain moral precepts (ethical), juridical (legal), ritual and cultural (a rich assemblage of religious and profane customs). They are of a concrete nature, expressed sometimes as absolutes (e.g., the Decalogue), at other times as particular cases that concretise general principles. They then have the status of precedent and serve as analogies for comparable situations, giving rise to the later development of jurisprudence, called halakah, the oral law, later called the Mishna. Many laws have a symbolic meaning, in the sense that they illustrate concretely invisible values such as equity, social harmony, humanitarianism, etc. Not all laws are to be applied, some are school texts for the formation of future priests, judges and other functionaries; others reflect ideas inspired by the prophetic movement.  They were applied in the towns and villages of the country (Covenant Code), then throughout the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, and later in the Jewish community dispersed throughout the world. (The Jewish People And Their Sacred Scriptures In The Christian Bible #43)[/quote]

So, again, what does this have to do with Roy Schoeman's book? Or is this simply a ruse in order for you to defame the Jewish faith?

Cam42

[cmotherofpirl]

James this thread is discussing a book.
Please stick to the topic.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Eremite, you confirm my worst fears about the effects that the Hebrew roots movement is having. I can only assume that you haven't studied Judaism and are only repeating something that you've heard someone else say.[/quote]

Yes, I am. The "someone else" is St. Paul and the Church.

[quote]How does this passage from the Kabbalah figure into your "Catholicsim is Judaism" theory?:[/quote]

The Kabbalah is an addition to Judaism by some of the seed of Abraham. As I told you before, Judaism is above all a PEOPLE, and then a religion. The descendants of Abraham have as their intention to follow the faith of their Fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and to worship their God. Such is a Jew.

As for Catholicism being Judaism, Catholicism fulfills the law and the prophets perfectly, because it has been established by God. The Lord came not to abolish the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them. Most of the descendants of Abraham, unfortunately, are ignorant of this fulfillment in Christ. That does not, however, diminish their faith in Yahweh and their honest attempt to follow the faith of their fathers. Like Protestantism, errors in thought are inevitable to crop up among them, because they lack the authority of pre-Christian Israel. But just as Protestantism's errors do not make it a non-Christian religion, so the error of some of the descendents of Abraham does not make them non-Jewish progeny.

[quote]Does this not place Pope Clement VIII's eternal condemnation of Jewish texts in it's proper perspective?[/quote]

As cmotherofpirl said, this discussion has been about Roy Schoeman and the Catholic view of Israel. Clement VIII would have equally condemned the errors of Protestantism. The truth that remains in Protestantism, however, bears it as a Christian religion, and its honest followers as authentic Christians, their errors notwithstanding.