james Posted February 12, 2005 Author Posted February 12, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 12 2005, 09:19 AM'] No, I think that I got it pretty close. It's origins, as I stated, were rooted in Mosaic times. The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith seems to agree. [/quote] We're arguing apples and oranges here. I have stated that the Talmud and Kabbalah were not [i]written[/i] until after Christ's death and resurrection. You are stating that the [i]origins[/i] of Talmud and Kabbalah were rooted in Mosaic times. These are two very different things. Let's try to be clear. I myself have stated that the Talmud and Kabbalah were based in an [i]oral tradition[/i] that was not [i]written[/i] down until after Christ. This oral tradition did exist in Mosaic times. It was the tradition of the elders: the subject of much harsh criticism from our Lord in the Gospels. It was the tradition of the Pharisees which makes God's law of no effect. The Talmud--the written tradition of the elders, is a book that's purpose is to circumvent Biblical law. That is why Christ condemned it and said that it "makes God's law of no effect." [quote]"And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients,... But (Jesus) answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites... [b]making the word of God of no effect through your tradition[/b], which you have handed down. And many such things you do" (Mark 7:5-13)[/quote] If one reads the Talmud, it becomes clear why Christ said this. [quote name='Babylonian Talmud' date=' Tractate Baba Metzia, folio 33b']“Those who devote themselves to reading the Bible exercise a certain virtue, but not very much. Those who study Mishna (the first part of Talmud) exercise virtue for which they will receive a reward. THOSE, HOWEVER, WHO TAKE UPON THEMSELVES TO STUDY THE GEMARA (the second part of Talmud) EXERCISE THE HIGHEST VIRTUE.[/quote] Reading this passage from the Talmud it becomes clear that Judaism takes it's cue from Pharisaism: the tradition of the elders which makes God's law of no effect. Judaism clearly places it's man-made law of the Talmud above God's law of the Bible. [quote]"The 'Jewish' religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees". (Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943)[/quote] [quote] "With the destruction of the Temple ...Henceforth, Jewish life was regulated by the teachings of the Pharisees ... Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism & the life & thought of the Jew for all the future." (Jewish Encyclopedia)[/quote] [quote]"After the conflicts with Rome (A.D. 66-135) Pharisaism became practically synonymous with Judaism." (Catholic Encyclopedia)[/quote] Now, I ask you, how is it possible that Christianity is a continuation of the tradition of the Pharisees, a tradition which Christ Himself specifically and repeatedly condemned? How could Christianity be a continuation of the tradition of the Pharisees who executed Christ and many of his disciples in order to suppress His teachings? The premise of Schoeman's book, "Salvation is from the Jews", is that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism and that is a false premise. Therefore the entire book is questionable. Edited February 12, 2005 by james
Guest Eremite Posted February 12, 2005 Posted February 12, 2005 [quote]Now, I ask you, how is it possible that Christianity is a continuation of the tradition of the Pharisees, a tradition which Christ Himself specifically and repeatedly condemned? How could Christianity be a continuation of the tradition of the Pharisees who executed Christ and many of his disciples in order to suppress His teachings?[/quote] AGAIN, Judaism was a diverse religion, before and in the time of Christ. There were quite a few Jewish groups claiming different things. They were all Jews. You keep reducing Judaism (and Christianity) to a book. It cannot be done. [quote]The premise of Schoeman's book, "Salvation is from the Jews", is that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism and that is a false premise. Therefore the entire book is questionable. [/quote] A false premise according to whom? Are you speaking as a Catholic? If not, why are you lecturing a Catholic with much credibility on what Catholicism teaches?
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2005 Posted February 13, 2005 There is something quite puzzling about your statement....thus leads me to believe that you really have no clear idea on the subject. First you say: [quote]I myself have stated that the Talmud and Kabbalah were based in an oral tradition that was not written down until after Christ.[/quote] Then you say: [quote]The Talmud--the written tradition of the elders, is a book that's purpose is to circumvent Biblical law. That is why Christ condemned it and said that it "makes God's law of no effect."[/quote] So which is it? Was the Talmud written before or after Christ's earthly life? [quote]We're arguing apples and oranges here.[/quote] No, actually we are not. The Talmud is based on the Mosaic oral tradition. Simple. I have actually given hard proof. This is something that I am now starting to think that you may be allergic to. [quote]Let's try to be clear.[/quote] As mud. Cam42
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2005 Posted February 13, 2005 I am confused about something else, James.... How do you hi-jack your own thread? 'Cause you've done it. Cam42
james Posted February 13, 2005 Author Posted February 13, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 12 2005, 11:13 PM'] So which is it? Was the Talmud written before or after Christ's earthly life? [/quote] If you're knowledgable of this topic you can answer that question yourself. If you aren't knowledgeable of this topic, one must wonder why you're debating it.
james Posted February 13, 2005 Author Posted February 13, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 12 2005, 11:32 PM'] I am confused about something else, James.... How do you hi-jack your own thread? 'Cause you've done it. Cam42 [/quote] Actually, I've focused on one specific point. And here it is for the third time. The premise of Schoeman's book, "Salvation is from the Jews", is that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism and that is a false premise. Therefore the entire book is questionable.
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2005 Posted February 13, 2005 Whaaaaaa......?????? You are confused. You are making no sense now. How about we actually get you to post something about Roy Schoeman. You are the one who wanted to discuss his book. Cam42
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2005 Posted February 13, 2005 "Salvation is from the Jews" is a quote from Luke's Gospel. How can it be false premise? Cam42
james Posted February 13, 2005 Author Posted February 13, 2005 [quote][b]Q: What inspired you to write this book?[/b] Schoeman: It seems obvious to me, as a Jew who has entered the Catholic Church, that [b]the Church is nothing else but "post Messianic" Judaism [/b] that is, the continuation of Judaism after the coming of the Jewish Messiah, now opened up to all peoples.[/quote] The premise of Schoeman's book, "Salvation is from the Jews", is that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism and that is a false premise. Therefore the entire book is questionable.
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2005 Posted February 13, 2005 We know you think that, now why is that James.... Try a new line. Cam42
Jaime Posted February 13, 2005 Posted February 13, 2005 James You regurgitate the same statement over and over again. This doesn't even come close to something resembling dialogue. That being said, I wouldn't mind a response on the Opus thread
Guest Eremite Posted February 13, 2005 Posted February 13, 2005 [quote]The premise of Schoeman's book, "Salvation is from the Jews", is that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism and that is a false premise. Therefore the entire book is questionable. [/quote] Correction. The premise of Schoeman's book, "Salvation is From the Jews", is that CATHOLICISM is a continuation of Judaism. That you have failed to disprove his thesis, which is concerned with Catholicism, not Protestantism, indicates a false premise on your part. Therefore, your entire objection is objectionable.
james Posted February 13, 2005 Author Posted February 13, 2005 (edited) Roy Schoeman wrote a book inspired by the false notion that the Catholic Church is a continuation of Judaism. [quote]Q: [b]What inspired you to write this book?[/b] Roy Schoeman: It seems obvious to me, as a Jew who has entered the Catholic Church, that [b]the Church is[/b] nothing else but "post Messianic" Judaism that is, [b]the continuation of Judaism [/b]after the coming of the Jewish Messiah, now opened up to all peoples. [/quote] Roy Schoeman's statement that the Catholic Church is a continuation of Judaism is false. Judaism is a religion which is based in the tradition of the Pharisees. [quote]"The 'Jewish' religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees". (Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943[/quote] Jesus Christ, the founder of the Catholic church, condemned the tradition of the Pharisees. [quote]"And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients,... But (Jesus) answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites... making the word of God of no effect through your tradition, which you have handed down. And many such things you do" (Mark 7:5-13)[/quote] After Christ was executed by the Pharisees and then resurrected, the Pharisees continued their tradition as Judaism. [quote]"After the conflicts with Rome (A.D. 66-135) Pharisaism became practically synonymous with Judaism." (Catholic Encyclopedia)[/quote] [quote]"With the destruction of the Temple ...Henceforth, Jewish life was regulated by the teachings of the Pharisees. Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism & the life & thought of the Jew for all the future." (Jewish Encyclopedia)[/quote] To state, as Roy Schoeman does, that the Catholic church is a continuation of Judaism--the tradition of the Pharisees which Christ condemned because it makes the word of God, the Mosaic law, of no effect--is absolutely false. Edited February 13, 2005 by james
james Posted February 13, 2005 Author Posted February 13, 2005 (edited) Roy Schoeman's purpose for writing "Salvation is From the Jews": [quote]"The purpose of the book (Salvation is From the Jews) is to give the Christian reader a deeper understanding of Judaism, both as a religion in itself and [i]as a central component of Christian salvation[/i]..." [url="http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/purpose.html"]http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/purpose.html[/url] [/quote] Roy Schoeman's purpose in writing "Salvation is From the Jews," is to propagate the false notion that Judaism: the tradition of the Pharisees who executed Christ, is a "central component" to Christian salvation. [quote]"The 'Jewish' religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees". (Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943)[/quote] Edited February 13, 2005 by james
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2005 Posted February 13, 2005 How about finishing the statement...... [quote]The purpose of the book is to give the Christian reader a deeper understanding of Judaism, both as a religion in itself and as a central component of Christian salvation, [b]and to reveal to the Jewish reader the incomprehensible importance and glory which Jews and Judaism most truly have; [i][u]a glory and importance which is only revealed in the light of the Catholic faith.[/i][/u][/b][/quote] Not really all that amazing that you conviently leave that part of the quote out. [quote]It traces the role of Judaism and the Jewish people in God’s plan for the salvation of all mankind from Abraham through the Second Coming, as revealed by the Catholic faith and by a thoughtful examination of history, showing the infinite nobility and importance which Judaism has as God’s own religion, and the unique and central role it has in the destiny of all of creation. Repeatedly it demonstrates that rather than debasing Judaism or Jews, true Christianity ennobles them to a far greater degree than even Judaism itself does.[/quote] You are proving to be an easy mark. Now, that we have used everything including the website, how about some of the book itself. Pagination would be a good thing to quote. Or are we just going to keep moving around the book and never get to it? If that is the case, I am out. You are proving nothing other than you can make an arbitrary statement, then not back it up. It is quickly becoming your modus operandi (mode of operation, in case your Latin isn't up to snuff) Cam42
james Posted February 13, 2005 Author Posted February 13, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 13 2005, 01:21 AM'] How about finishing the statement...... [/quote] [quote][b]The purpose of the book is to give the Christian reader a deeper understanding of Judaism, both as a religion in itself and as a central component of Christian salvation[/b], and to reveal to the Jewish reader the incomprehensible importance and glory which Jews and Judaism most truly have; a glory and importance which is only revealed in the light of the Catholic faith[/quote] I'm not concerned with what Schoeman wants to teach Jews. It is what he intends to teach Christians that concerns me. Schoeman intends to teach Christians that Judaism: the religion of the Pharisees who executed Christ, is a "central component" of Christian salvation. This is absolutely false. Edited February 13, 2005 by james
cmotherofpirl Posted February 13, 2005 Posted February 13, 2005 "The purpose of the book is to give the Christian reader a deeper understanding of Judaism, both as a religion in itself and as a central component of Christian salvation, and to reveal to the Jewish reader the incomprehensible importance and glory which Jews and Judaism most truly have; a glory and importance which is only revealed in the light of the Catholic faith" Since we now know the purpose of the book which is a laudable one, I think this thread has run it course.
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