Who Killed Jesus?

[Cam42]

I would like to reflect on the Passion Death and Ressurection of the Lord, during this Lenten Season. Play nice.

Cam42

[Chris Zewe III]

Whoever nailed him up is the one who killed him. I don't know which that is, however.

[epiclesis]

I can't vote. You don't have my answer as one of the choices.

Jesus offered Himself up freely for us. If Jesus had not choosen to give of Himself freely, He would never have been crucified.

[Chris Zewe III]

[quote name='epiclesis' date='Feb 13 2005, 11:48 AM'] I can't vote. You don't have my answer as one of the choices.

Jesus offered Himself up freely for us. If Jesus had not choosen to give of Himself freely, He would never have been crucified. [/quote]
The question was who killed him. You seem to be implying that Jesus killed himself. Suicide is forbidden. JESUS = SINNAR?

[Guest Eremite]

Chris,

Suicide is the taking of one's life when one does not have authority over life and death.

Christ is God, and has that authority. He has the power to lay down his life, and the power to take it up again.

[Chris Zewe III]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 13 2005, 12:01 PM'] Chris,

Suicide is the taking of one's life when one does not have authority over life and death.

Christ is God, and has that authority. He has the power to lay down his life, and the power to take it up again. [/quote]
Worst. Loophole. Ever.

[epiclesis]

Chris, do your parents know how you are spending your time? I can't believe that this is what your father has in mind when he pays the internet bill each month.

[Cam42]

OK, remember the "play nice" part?

Christ was fully human and fully divine. One cannot separate the two.

First, Insofar as he was divine, he had the power to do what Eremite said. But, he didn't.

Second, insofar as he was human, he had to suffer death, in order to fulfill the divine revelation that had been given to the Jewish people. This established him as the Messiah.

With those oversimplified statemtents, I will say this. Christ entered into the world to save mankind. But, the question is who killed him. He did in fact die. He did not die a natural death. He was killed, in his human form. Who did it? Was it Pilate? Was it Caiaphas? etc....

I contend that it was all mankind that killed him. I will reserve my comments on why for later. I want to see what others think.

This is meant to spur Lenten reflection not to start a "Yo Mamma" arguement. Thoughtful and accurate posting would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Cam42

[Tink]

Well, in attempts to divert this thread from the overly immature path it has taken, I will say this. We are all responsible for Christ's death because we all nail Him to that cross every time we sin against Him. It really doesn't matter much who physically put the nails in His hands and feet, but rather that we, collectively are responsible for His passion.

[quote] [b] Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus' death [/b]

597 The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost.385 Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept "the ignorance" of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.386 Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd's cry: "His blood be on us and on our children!", a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.387 As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:


. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388

[b]All sinners were the authors of Christ's Passion [/b]

598 In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself,390 the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:


We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, "None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.391
Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.392

-the Catechism of the Catholic Church[/quote]

[musturde]

who said the Jews?

[james]

Christ's sacrifice was made necessary by the original sin of Adam and Eve. Justice required that a sacrifice be made in atonement for that sin. God, in His mercy, provided the necessary sacrifice in the crucifixion of His own Son.

All of mankind collectively bears the guilt of the original sin of Adam and Eve.

However, all mankind does not share the same responsibility for the crucifixion. The Sanhedrin delivered Christ to the Roman authorities and demanded His execution. Even despite Pilate's protest that he found no blame in Christ, the Jews cried out for His blood.

Both the Christian Gospels and the Talmud of Judaism bear witness to this fact. These facts get distorted by the vague language that is so much a part of ecumenicism today. But no amount of ecumenical rhetoric can change facts.

Edited February 14, 2005 by james

[Jaime]

Musturde, I think you have your answer now


So James, it is your opinion that Catholic teaching is in error on this?

[james]

What I've stated is firmly based in nearly 2000 years of church teaching on the crucifixion.

[Jaime]

OR

Completely against the Catechism.

Is the Catechism in error?

[popestpiusx]

I think the question needs to be re-worded.

[Jaime]

[quote]  I think the question needs to be re-worded.[/quote]

How would you reword the question?

[Tink]

As in
'Who brought about the death of Jesus?'
or
'Who was directly responsible for the sentencing and death of Jesus?'

Two very different questions.

[musturde]

[quote name='james' date='Feb 13 2005, 07:05 PM'] What I've stated is firmly based in nearly 2000 years of church teaching on the crucifixion. [/quote]
I see where you're going but the Jews weren't responsible for Jesus' death. Without our sins, the Jews wouldn't have done this. The point is, whether it was technically the roman soldiers of the jewish people who actually did sentence Jesus to die, he knew about it and came FOR it to happen.

[Cam42]

Well James,

[quote]But no amount of ecumenical rhetoric can change facts.[/quote]

How about an infallible teaching of the Church?

[quote]The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. (Fidei Depostium #3)[/quote]

That would mean, infallible based upon the Ordinary Magisterium.

So, with that being said, this is a statemtent that is free from doctrinal error, at least according to the Catholic Church.

[quote]The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost. (CCC #597)[/quote]

This is in direct conflict with your statement:
[quote]However, all mankind does not share the same responsibility for the crucifixion. The Sanhedrin delivered Christ to the Roman authorities and demanded His execution. Even despite Pilate's protest that he found no blame in Christ, the Jews cried out for His blood.[/quote]

Amazingly enough, if you would have read Nostra Aetate, you would have seen that the Vatican Council II affirmed this.

[quote]True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; [b]still, what happened in His passion [u]cannot be charged against all the Jews,[/u] without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today.[/b] Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. (Nostra Aetate #4)[/quote]

It goes on to say:
[quote]Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows. (Nostra Aetate #4)[/quote]

Do you want to ammend your statement?

Cam42

[Cam42]

No, I like the question the way it is.....it forces one to think through one's answer before answering and/or posting.

Thanks,

Cam42