Who Killed Jesus?

[Donna]

Is there an understanding problem?

Passion Play (some main characters):

1) Pilate
2) Rome
3)Sanhedrin
4) Jews
5) Judas


The Jews, as in "4)" - and "3)" as well, obviously - crucified Him.

Are people reading an answer of "the Jews" out of reference? Aren't we talking about Calvary and what lead up to it? Were those ethnic brethren of Jesus who
chose Barabas to be let free and Jesus to die, Swedes?

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='Donna' date='Feb 14 2005, 12:06 AM'] Is there an understanding problem?

Passion Play (some main characters):

1) Pilate
2) Rome
3)Sanhedrin
4) Jews
5) Judas


The Jews, as in "4)" - and "3)" as well, obviously - crucified Him.

Are people reading an answer of "the Jews" out of reference? Aren't we talking about Calvary and what lead up to it? Were those ethnic brethren of Jesus who
chose Barabas to be let free and Jesus to die, Swedes? [/quote]
No, they were French.


Are you trying to say that the Jews and the Sanhedrin are below us? And because you are not Jewish you are not guilty of nailing Jesus to the cross? What is the meaning of Christ's death? Is it not to atone for your sins? Who in here is without sin and can say I did not kill Jesus, the Jews did?

[james]

[quote name='Cam42'][quote name='James']But no amount of ecumenical rhetoric can change facts.[/quote]

How about an infallible teaching of the Church?[/quote]

Your reasoning appears to be backwards.

The Church cannot transform error into truth through it's teachings.

The church recognizes truth as it exists and teaches accordingly.

The Gospel account of the crucifixion leaves little doubt who seized our Lord in the garden of Gethsemane while He prayed as if He was a some kind of violent criminal; subjected Him to a nighttime interrogation; handed Him over to the Roman authorities demanding His execution; and then cried for His blood even though the Roman authorities found Him blameless.

If someone interprets the Catholic catechism in a way that contradicts Biblical scripture, we know that the problem lies not with scripture but somewhere else.

It's well worth pointing out that the rabbis who wrote the Talmud credit the Sanhedrin with responsibility for Christ's execution and they reason that the Sanhedrin was justified in executing Christ.

[quote]On Passover eve they hanged Jesus of Nazareth. [b]Jesus of Nazareth is going out to be stoned because he practiced sorcery; incited, and led Israel astray.[/b] Whoever knows of an argument that can be proposed in his favor should come and present that argument on his behalf.

[b]But the judges of the Sanhedrin did not find an argument in his favor and so they executed him on Passover eve.[/b] Did Jesus of Nazareth deserve that such a search be made for an argument in his favor? Surely he incited others to idol worship, and regarding such a person the Torah says, "You shall not spare, no, nor shall you conceal him," teaching that no effort should be made to find arguments that might lead to his acquittal.

Rather, it must be the case that Jesus was different because he had close connections with the non-Jewish authorities and those authorities were interested in his acquittal. Thus, it was necessary to give him all the opportunity to clear himself. [b]But was Jesus deserving of a search for an argument in his favor? He was an inciter, and the Torah says, "you shall not spare, nor shall you conceal him." [/b](Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, folio 43a)[/quote]

What I have stated may not be consistant with the ecumenical spirit of the day, but it is firmly based in the Gospel, nearly 2000 years of Catholic church teaching, and it is consistant with the Talmudic account of Christ's execution.

Edited February 14, 2005 by james

[cmotherofpirl]

So whichever jews who happened to be there and screamed for his blood [i]could [/i]be judged guilty by God. And your point is?
Church teaching on the topic:

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. (Nostra Aetate #4)

What about all the jews who supported Jesus? What about the cowardly disciples who conveniently dissappeared?

[Cam42]

Ok everyone,

Here is my reasoning as to why I don't believe it was the Jews. I am also repsonding at the same time to another poster on this thread.

[quote]Your reasoning appears to be backwards.[/quote]

Ah they can be deceiving can't they; appearances?

Let's take a look at the scriptural references for the quotes others and myself posted, shall we?

CCC 597 (cf Mk 15:11, Acts 2:23, 36; 3:13-14; 4:10; 5:30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-28; 1 Thess 2:14-15; Lk 23:34; Acts 3:17; Mt 27:25; cf Acts 5:28; 18:6; {our good friend} Nostra Aetate no.4)

CCC 598 (Roman Catechism I, 5, 11; cf Heb 12:3; Mt 25:45; Acts 9:4-5)

Nostra Aetate (cf. John. 19:6)

[quote]If someone interprets the Catholic catechism in a way that contradicts Biblical scripture, we know that the problem lies not with scripture but somewhere else.[/quote]

So, who is that someone? If you mean me, I am sorry, but I am not the one in error. I have just shown you that all four Gospels are cited, as well as Acts and two other NT books. But what I find to be most telling is; the other quotations that are used to support the points of the posters and myself to this thread are quotations from the Roman Catechism promulgated at the Council of Trent [b]AND[/b] Vatican Council II. Interesting, no?

So, what can we gather? The Tradition of the Church has vindicated the false notion that it was the Jews who killed Jesus. It was not their responsibility. Whose was it? Was it Pilate? He handed down the sentence of death. The Jews had no authority. Was it Caiaphas? He had Jesus arrested and taken to Pilate. Was it Adam and Eve, through that first sin in the Garden of Eden? They forced God's hand and made it necessary for the Redeemer; the Messiah to save the World. Or was it all mankind from Adam through the end of the world, by sharing in that first sin of Adam?

I said that I would hold my response until later. It is later.

[quote]What I have stated may not be consistant with the ecumenical spirit of the day, but it is firmly based in the Gospel, nearly 2000 years of Catholic church teaching....[/quote]

It is not consistent with nearly 2000 years of Catholic church teaching, as witnessed by Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition promulgated by two infallible Ecumenical Councils of the Roman Catholic Church (ie. The Roman Catechism and the Catechism (1562) of the Catholic Church (1992). Not to be confused with the publication dates of 1566 and 1994 respectively.)

I respectfully request that the discussion of the Talmudic Jews be tabled. This is not the point of the poll. Thanks.

Cam42

[Cam42]

So,

Here is a thought. Were not two of Jesus' closest disciples outside the Twelve Pharisees and members of the Sanhedrin?

Just curious. Who wants to post the names?

Cam42

Edited February 14, 2005 by Cam42

[Jaime]

Who are Nicodemus(naqdimon is the hebrew form of the name Nicodemus found in the Talmud) and Joseph of Arimathea Alex?


I'll take "Antisemiticism smells of elderberries" for a thousand

[Cam42]

You win the daily double!!!!!!

Nice work Himester!!!!!

"Anti-Semitism smells of elderberries" is now closed!

Cam42

Edited February 14, 2005 by Cam42

[toledo_jesus]

Actually, to be accurate, the Romans ended the life of Jesus. As part of the agreement between Rome and Judea, Jews were not conscripted into the army, had freedom to practice their religion, but had to pay taxes and refer capital crimes to the Roman governor. The Jews actually had it easy. They were not required to worship the Emperor.
The Jewish authorities dealt with Jesus as one who was challenging them. They turned him over to the Romans, who couldn't find anything he'd done. Pilate could have let Jesus go but for the outcry. Pilate had been putting down insurrections for years and he wasn't about to have a riot in Jerusalem. So he caved.
Those Jews were very mean. The Romans were very bad. BUT...
Jesus was sacrificed because of all our sins. That includes the Jews and the Romans. Ultimately, we are responsible, as surely as if we took the hammer in our hands and nailed him to that cross ourselves.

[james]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 14 2005, 07:35 AM'] So whichever jews who happened to be there and screamed for his blood [i]could [/i]be judged guilty by God. And your point is?
Church teaching on the topic:

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews... [/quote]
You say tomato, I say tomato...

I have not blamed all Jews for the crucifixion, although some here seem to be all too eager to interpret me that way.

What I wrote is scripturally and historically sound and is supported by the Talmudic account of Christ's execution.


[quote name='Cam42']I respectfully request that the discussion of the Talmudic Jews be tabled. [/quote]

Of course you do, because it's historical evidence that contradicts your position. You apparently have set up this thread so that you can win a debate, not to disclose the historical truth.

Edited February 14, 2005 by james

[Cam42]

James,

My problem with your statement is that you say that responsibility lies with the Jews.

That is contrary to Church teaching. I have posted it. Everyone has posted it. You even say it.

[quote]However, all mankind does not share the same responsibility for the crucifixion. The Sanhedrin delivered Christ to the Roman authorities and demanded His execution.[/quote]

This implies something that is contrary to Catholic teaching.

While we do not know how God will judge, the Church teaches that it is not our place to impart blame or responsibility, which by that statement you have done.

While what you have said may appear to be valid, it is most certainly not sound. Therefore an unacceptable premise, that the Jews are somehow responsible moreso than any other group of humans invalidates your argument.

I refer you to the earlier quotes by Tink, cmom, and myself. This should sufficiently enlighten you as to where you are making your error. (Nostra Aetate no.4 and CCC 597)

So, cmom is not wrong by wording her statement the way that she does, because she imputes no guilt on the Jews, specifically. You, on the other hand, do. That is where the error lies.

Cam42

[Cam42]

[quote]Of course you do, because it's historical evidence that contradicts your agenda.[/quote]

No, because the point of this thread has nothing to do with the Talmud. Notice you are the only one talking about it. So, again, I respectfully request that you stop talking about it. Thanks.

Cam42

[james]

"And so all who cried out with impious voices for the crucifixion of Christ slew Him, not, indeed, directly with their own hands, but personally through him who was compelled to such a crime by their clamour .... They were implicated in the crime from which they tried to hold themselves aloof; for Pilate would have done no such thing, save to implement what he perceived to be their fixed desire." [St Augustine: On the Gospel of Saint John 114, 115]

"Let not the Jews say, 'We have not crucified Christ.' For to this end they gave Him to Pilate the judge, in order that they themselves might seem as if they were guiltless of His death .... But if he is guilty because he did it against his will, are they innocent who compelled him to do it? By no means. But he gave sentence against him, and commanded him to be crucified: and in a manner himself killed him; you also, O you Jews, killed him. Whence did you kill Him? With the sword of the tongue: for ye did whet your tongues. And when did ye smite, except when ye cried out, 'Crucify, crucify'? .... This is the whole of the Jews sagacity, this is that which they sought as some great matter. Let us kill and let us not kill: so let us kill, as that we may not ourselves be judged to have killed."
[St Augustine: On the Psalms 63:4,5; Roman Breviary, Matins of Good Friday]

"For as though they were afraid lest they should seem to fall short at all in the crime, having killed the prophets with their own hands, but this man with the sentence of a judge, so they do in every deed; and make it the work of their own hands, and condemn and sentence both among themselves and before Pilate, saying: 'His blood be on us and on our children,' and insult Him, and do despite unto Him themselves, binding Him, leading Him away, and render themselves authors of the spiteful acts done by the soldiers, and nail Him to the cross, and revile Him, and spit at Him, and deride Him. For Pilate contributed nothing in this matter, but they themselves did everything, becoming accusers, and judges, and executioners, and all."
[St John Chrysostom: On the Gospel of Saint Matthew]

[cmotherofpirl]

So the answer to the question who killed Jesus is all of us.
Case closed.

[james]

"Pilate took water in accordance with that, 'I will wash my hands in innocency', in a manner testifying and saying, I indeed have sought to deliver this innocent man, but since a tumult is rising, and the charge of treason to Caesar is urged against me, I am innocent of the blood of this just man .... Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us and on our children. This imprecation rests at the present day upon the Jews: the Lord's blood is not removed from them."
--St. Thomas Aquinas, Catena Aurea

[cmotherofpirl]

The jews standing there did not have the authority to speak for every jew for all time, nor is St Thomas infallible or constitutes the Magisterium of the Church.
Chuerch teaching has been posted.
More than once.
Case closed.