Ad orientam v. Versus populum

[Cam42]

Ok gang.....here is a fun one.....it will take some looking up, but which way should the priest be facing? Look at the wording of the Vatican Council II docs and look at the wording of the GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal).

[Donna]

The priest should face God.

(You are destined to put up w/ ppl not answering your specific questions)

[theculturewarrior]

My understanding is that the priest should pray versus populum if it is a free standing altar. If it is a ad orientem altar and if it is historical, the priest should pray ad orientem.

Am I correct?

[cmotherofpirl]

Both are correct.
It all depends on how the Church is built.

[Apotheoun]

Prior to the 1970 when Pope Paul VI issued the revised Roman Missal there was never a time when the priest and the people faced each other while praying. In the small number of Churches in the city of Rome and in North Africa where the Church buildings were built with a westward orientation, the priest would stand behind the altar facing east and looking at the people during the readings and during the various dialogue portions of the Mass, but whenever the priest began the prayers of the liturgy, the entire congregation would turn and face east, and in doing so they would have their backs to him. It is an apostolic tradition that Christ will return from the east (Matt. 24:27) and so Christians have always (until 1970) faced east when praying. The present Roman Missal, which has the priest facing the people during prayer, symbolically signifies a closed circle; in other words, it phenomenologically presents a situation where the transcendent element, signified by the eastward orientation, is lost; and this gives the false impression that the community is the source of its own life.

In the Eastern Rites the priest never faces the people when he is offering prayers; instead, he continues the unbroken tradition of turning and facing east.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Feb 18 2005, 03:40 AM'] My understanding is that the priest should pray versus populum if it is a free standing altar. If it is a ad orientem altar and if it is historical, the priest should pray ad orientem.

Am I correct? [/quote]
The Eastern Churches have always had free standing altars, because it is has always been a part of the Byzantine Rite liturgy for the priest to incense the altar from all four sides, but the priest has never faced the people during prayer.

[Apotheoun]

The Vatican itself has expressly forbidden the novel practice of the priest facing the people during prayer in the Eastern Churches:

[quote name='Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches' date=' no. 107']Ever since ancient times, it has been customary in the prayer of the Eastern Churches to prostrate oneself to the ground, turning toward the east; the buildings themselves were constructed such that the altar would face the east. Saint John of Damascus explains the meaning of this tradition: "It is not for simplicity nor by chance that we pray turned toward the regions of the east (...). Since God is intelligible light (1 Jn. 1:5), and in the Scripture, Christ is called the Sun of justice (Mal. 3:20) and the East (Zec. 3:8 of the LXX), it is necessary to dedicate the east to him in order to render him worship. The Scripture says: 'Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and he placed there the man whom he had formed' (Gen. 2:8). (...) In search of the ancient homeland and tending toward it, we worship God. Even the tent of Moses had its curtain veil and propitiatory facing the east. And the tribe of Judah, in as much as it was the most notable, encamped on the east side (cf. Nm. 2:3). In the temple of Solomon, the Lord's gate was facing the east (cf. Ez. 44:1). Finally, the Lord placed on the cross looked toward the west, and so we prostrate ourselves in his direction, facing him. When he ascended to heaven, he was raised toward the east, and thus his disciples adored him, and thus he will return, in the same way as they saw him go to heaven (cf. Acts 1:11), as the Lord himself said: 'For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be' (Mt. 24:27). Waiting for him, we prostrate ourselves toward the east. It is an unwritten tradition, deriving from the Apostles." 

This rich and fascinating interpretation also explains the reason for which the celebrant who presides in the liturgical celebration prays facing the east, just as the people who participate. It is not a question, as is often claimed, of presiding the celebration with the back turned to the people, but rather of guiding the people in pilgrimage toward the Kingdom, invoked in prayer until the return of the Lord.[/quote]

It is the common tradition of both East and West (prior to 1970) to turn east in prayer, hopefully at some point in the future the Roman Rite will reestablish this ancient Apostolic Tradition.

[BullnaChinaShop]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 18 2005, 08:27 AM'] The Vatican itself has expressly forbidden the novel practice of the priest facing the people during prayer in the Eastern Churches:



It is the common tradition of both East and West (prior to 1970) to turn east in prayer, hopefully at some point in the future the Roman Rite will reestablish this ancient Apostolic Tradition. [/quote]
I was about to ask you to explain the tradition a bit more but this latest post explains it quite well. Thank you.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Donna' date='Feb 18 2005, 03:12 AM'] The priest should face God.[/quote]
You are absolutely correct. It is an ancient axiom that a man faces the one to whom he is offering prayer. Thus, when the priest faces the people, it symbolically sends the wrong message. Phenomenologically it appears as if the priest is praying to the people, and the people are praying to the priest. It is a complete and utter confusion of liturgical signs.

God bless,
Todd

[theculturewarrior]

Of course, I prefer facing east along with the celebrant. The theological reason, the symbolism, etc., seems much weightier. I would be hesitant to suggest that it is the only good way of doing it, and I would not say that it is not within the competence of the Church to modify or clarify this devotion.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Feb 18 2005, 06:59 AM'] Of course, I prefer facing east along with the celebrant. The theological reason, the symbolism, etc., seems much weightier. I would be hesitant to suggest that it is the only good way of doing it, and I would not say that it is not within the competence of the Church to modify or clarify this devotion. [/quote]
Facing east while praying is an Apostolic Tradition, having the priest face the people during prayer is not. What I'm saying isn't all that shocking, even Cardinal Ratzinger recognizes that the modern Roman Rite practice of having the priest face the people during prayer is a novelty.

[theculturewarrior]

It's a tradition with a capital T?

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
2/18 - First Friday of Lent

I don't mean to sound like I'm contradicting anyone, but the tomb of St. Nicholas the Wonder-worker in Bari, Italy, has always been built so that the priest faces the people during the Liturgy - whether the people faced him, I know not (as the church was not built with pews). I remember being struck upon sight of this, that's all.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

If the priest must face east, what would a priest do who was saying Mass and standing exactly at the north pole or south pole?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

According to what Fr. Peter Stravinskas told me once, the rubrics actually call for and assume that the priest is facing ad orientem, since it mentions at times, "the priest should turn to the people" to do such and such...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Feb 18 2005, 11:40 AM'] If the priest must face east, what would a priest do who was saying Mass and standing exactly at the north pole or south pole? [/quote]
Aren't there still East and West at the poles?

In any event, the point of facing East was originally to face Jerusalem, and they can still do that.

[BullnaChinaShop]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 18 2005, 11:37 AM'] Aren't there still East and West at the poles?
[/quote]
Nope. If you are at the North Pole alll you can do is face south and if at the South Pole all you can do is face north.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='BullnaChinaShop' date='Feb 18 2005, 01:16 PM'] Nope. If you are at the North Pole alll you can do is face south and if at the South Pole all you can do is face north. [/quote]
But you can face the Eastern and Western hemispheres.

I think you can face North and East or North and West at the same time.

[BullnaChinaShop]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 18 2005, 01:00 PM'] But you can face the Eastern and Western hemispheres.

I think you can face North and East or North and West at the same time. [/quote]
This really depends on what frame of reference you are using to define your directions. If you are using a local frame of reference then you can only face south or north depending on the pole, but if you use a fixed global frame of reference then you could still have an east or west at the poles.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Feb 18 2005, 07:27 AM'] JMJ
2/18 - First Friday of Lent

I don't mean to sound like I'm contradicting anyone, but the tomb of St. Nicholas the Wonder-worker in Bari, Italy, has always been built so that the priest faces the people during the Liturgy - whether the people faced him, I know not (as the church was not built with pews).  I remember being struck upon sight of this, that's all. [/quote]
In Churches built with a westward orientation (i.e., buildings with the apse on the western end and where the priest would stand behind the altar looking east and facing the people), it is the people who would turn and face east during the prayers. Thus, the people would have their backs to the priest during the prayers. The priest and the people have never, in history of the Church (until 1970), faced each other while praying.