Girl Altar Servers?

[Cam42]

Michael,

[quote]I don't think that it is just a "tool" for vocations.[/quote]

You are quite right, it isn't a merely a tool, but rather an extension of the minor order of acolyte. This was stated in an earlier post.

[quote]If the Pope and the bishops say it's okay, then it's okay.[/quote]

There are circumstances in which it is ok. But again there must be a sufficent reason and need. It is not something to be arbitrarily allowed. This too was discussed earlier in this thread.

[quote]I believe that serving mass is a way for anyone to become closer to God and to get to know Him better.[/quote]

This is not the intention of serving the Mass. Active and concious participation was also discussed in this thread. One does not grow closer to God simply by sitting closer to the altar. One grows closer to God through a full concious and active participation in the Liturgy. This is more than simply "participatio activa" or outward actions, but rather it is "participatio actuosa" or an internal action. That is what brings one closer to God.

[quote]It's not any more distracting than sitting in the pews of church.[/quote]

That is your opinion and that is fine, however, I know many more teens and pre-teens who are seriously challenged by attraction to the opposite sex.

Cam42

[OneLife2Live]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Feb 20 2005, 10:38 AM']I am not completely against female altar servers, but I am disappointed that there are more girls serving than guys.[/quote]
I have been an alterserver for years. Three of my sisters have also been alterservers so far. There are always going to be distractions that one has to ignore while in church, especially when serving. As for wanting more boys to serve, they need to be the ones to step up and serve our Lord. I fully believe that it is just as important for girls to be able to alter serve as it is for boys. I know that alter serving has helped me a great deal and I wish that all who
[b]Choose[/b] to serve God will be blessed in many ways. Serving is a great experience for both sexes and female servers should not be frowned upon.

+GOD BLESS+
~LEAH

[OneLife2Live]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 27 2005, 09:31 PM']QUOTE 
It's not any more distracting than sitting in the pews of church.

That is your opinion and that is fine, however, I know many more teens and pre-teens who are seriously challenged by attraction to the opposite sex.
[/quote]
First of all, church is [b]NOT[/b] the place to be thinking about the opposite sex. If one cannot take their mind off of the things of this world long enough to listen to Gods word and really pay attention, the Church is going to have some serious problems. I understand we are all human and hormones are raging in those preteen and teen years but really, can we not love our God enough to focus all our attention on [b]HIM[/b] and forget about all that is around us. God has given us all we need and all he asks is that we in return devote time to him daily and put aside all things [b]BUT HIM[/b].
Back to the alter server business, on the alter during mass should be the the [b]LAST[/b] place ones mind should wander to the opposite sex.
+GOD BLESS+
~LEAH

[Oik]

[quote] I fully believe that it is just as important for girls to be able to alter serve as it is for boys.[/quote]

Our comformity to the Magisterium, Her Supreme Pontiff and our faith must be as such that we are not attempting to further an agenda.

Gender identicality (i made that one up) is an agenda, we as faithful Catholics must not and can not support it. Male and Female are different and not identical. Our dignigty is equal. No act should be partaken in which there is an attempt to prove otherwise.

As tgo the issue of female alter servers, again, we must really understand that this is an indult and not issued to praise the occurance. Rather, it is issued to settle disobidence to the Magisterium.

[OneLife2Live]

I am a devout Catholic and understand the importance of roles in the church. However, I still do not see what is so wrong with a female alter server. I totally understand women cannot be priests but I still stand firm with my belief that female alter servers are ok. Can someone [b]PLEASE[/b] explain to me, in simple terms if possible, what the problem of a female alter server is??????

+GOD BLESS+

~LEAH FAITH

[Jaime]

[quote]There are circumstances in which it is ok. But again there must be a sufficent reason and need. It is not something to be arbitrarily allowed.[/quote]

Excuse me Camster, but where does it say that? The GIRMstates that the bishop may permit altar servers and makes no distinction about sufficient reason and need

[quote]Although institution into the ministry of acolyte is reserved to lay men, the diocesan bishop may permit the liturgical functions of the instituted acolyte to be carried out by altar servers, men and women, boys and girls. Such persons may carry out all the functions listed in no. 100 and nos. 189-193 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.[/quote]

The way it is stated in the GIRM, it reads that it is at the discretion of the bishop, and can be arbitrary.

And don't let him kid you folks... he's a little sexist.

hot stuff

No longer lurking (whew)

[JP2Iloveyou]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

[quote]47. It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension.119 Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these.120 Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes.121 [b]Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.122[[/b] [/quote]

This seems pretty clear and straightforward to me.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Feb 28 2005, 05:38 PM'] Straight from the horse's mouth:

[quote]47. It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension. Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these. Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes. Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.[/quote]

This seems pretty clear and straightforward to me. [/quote]
It is important to remember that the indult allowing female altar servers is applicable only in the Roman Rite, and is simply a negative permission, that is, it is an exception to the universal Apostolic Tradition of male altar service. This indult is also only allowed for true pastoral reasons, and that is why [u]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/u] says, "in observance of the established norms." These norms for the Roman Rite can be found in the original decision of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts and in the letter of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments which clarified that no priest can be required to use female servers when he celebrates Mass, along with the other notitiae of that Congregation.

The use of altar girls, which breaks the 1994 year old Tradition of the Church, must always be seen as a permission to do a non-normative practice, and should not be seen as a positive enactment in law. As with all indults it is a permission to do something contrary to the norm. Thus, the normative practice of only allowing males to enter into the presbyterium is still in force, both in the Roman Rite and in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

As I have said several times, I hope that at some point in the future the Roman Rite will restore the ancient Apostolic practice of allowing only males to serve at the altar, because this tradition, maintained inviolate by the Eastern Catholic Churches, reflects the supernatural ordering of the sacramental life of the Church. The loss of this Apostolic Tradition in the Roman Rite is to be lamented by all; and proper catechesis concerning the roles of men and women in the supernatural order should be undertaken within the Latin Church, so that this problem can be resolved, and the proper Tradition of the Church can be restored in the western liturgy.

God bless,
Todd

[toledo_jesus]

I have a feeling that perhaps no amount of reasonable discussion will overcome the secularist viewpoint.

[Micheal5403]

[quote]This is not the intention of serving the Mass. Active and concious participation was also discussed in this thread. One does not grow closer to God simply by sitting closer to the altar. One grows closer to God through a full concious and active participation in the Liturgy. This is more than simply "participatio activa" or outward actions, but rather it is "participatio actuosa" or an internal action. That is what brings one closer to God.[/quote]

I never said the reason was because I was closer to the alter. It's more of the state of mind that I am in when I serve mass and the grace that is received. I also meant that you obtain a better understanding of the mass.

[Cam42]

El Hime-a-rino!!!!

[quote]Excuse me Camster, but where does it say that?[/quote]

Jorge Cardinal Medina Estevez states:

[quote]In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since "it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar" (Circular Letter to the Presidents of the Episcopal Conferences, March 15, 1994, no. 2).....[b]With respect to whether the practice of women serving at the altar would truly be of pastoral advantage in the local pastoral situation[/b], it is perhaps helpful to recall that the non-ordained faithful do not have a right to service at the altar, rather they are capable of being admitted to such service by the Sacred Pastors (cf. Circular Letter to the Presidents of the Episcopal Conferences, March 15, 1994, no. 4, cf. also can. 228, s.1, Interdicasterial Instruction Ecclesiae de mysterio, August 15, 1997, no. 4, see Notitiae 34 [1998] 9-42).[/quote]

[quote]Rather, after having heard the opinion of the Episcopal Conference, [b]he is to base his prudential judgment upon what he considers to accord more closely with the local pastoral need for an ordered development of the liturgical life[/b] in the diocese entrusted to his care, bearing in mind, among other things, the sensibilities of the faithful, the reasons which would motivate such a permission, and the different liturgical settings and congregations which gather for the Holy Mass (cf. Circular Letter to the Presidents of the Episcopal Conferences, March 15, 1994, no. 1).[/quote]

Notice the bold, with respect to where it would be of pastoral advantage and of pastoral need. Cardinal Estevez says in this letter:

[quote]...this Dicastry wishes to assure you of its gratitude for the opportunity to elaborate further upon this question and that it considers the present letter to be normative.[/quote]

[url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/DocumentIndex/556"]Concerning the Use of Female Altar Servers [/url]

I have never said that it wasn't allowable, actually, I have supported the traditional use of females in certain situations. I am supporting the position of Cardinal Medina Estevez.

Camster

P.S. This document speaks directly to the idea of serving at the altar as being linked with vocations. For those who are interested.

[Cam42]

[quote]It's more of the state of mind that I am in when I serve mass and the grace that is received.[/quote]

And that is what I was speaking about. It isn't about serving Mass, it is about turning your mind, body, heart and soul to God. It is not about the fact that one does or does not serve Mass.

Participatio actuosa v. participatio activa is the point of the response, not whether or not you are sitting closer to the altar.

Perhaps this article will help you to understand better what I am getting at.

[url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/ArticleText/Index/100/SubIndex/103/ArticleIndex/35"]Participation: Msgr. Richard Schuler[/url]

In it he states:
[quote]The difference between participation in the liturgy that can be called activa and participation that can be lablled actuosa rests in the presence in the soul of the baptismal character, the seal that grants one the right to participate. Without the baptismal mark, all the actions of singing, walking, kneeling or anything else can be termed "active," but they do not constitute participatio actuosa. Only the baptismal character can make any actions truly participatory. (Msgr. Richard Schuler)[/quote]

[quote]The means to achieve such elevation of the spirit in prayer onvolve all the activities of the human person, both spirit and body. Such means produce true actuosa participatio. (Msgr. Richard Schuler)[/quote]

Cam42

[Jaime]

[quote]P.S. This document speaks directly to the idea of serving at the altar as being linked with vocations. For those who are interested[/quote]

If the focus needs to be on creating greater interest in vocations (and I'm not saying that's not a good focus), why deal with the question of boy vs girl altar servers?

Why not focus on the lack of acolytes?

People are stating that many priests started their journey as altar servers. I don't deny that. However, I would be willing to bet my bacon that those same priests also served as acolytes and that was an even more integral step in their journey. How many diocese have actively promoted an acolyte ministry?

If we were to change the focus from "I don't like girl altar servers" to "why not promote the ministry of acolytes" then the possibility of it being a mysogenistic conversation is over. We've had quite a few folks say "hey I was an altar server" . There's only one who's participating on this thread that I know has been an acolyte. Any others>

For the record, I have no problem with girls as altar servers. I do have a problem with the lack of acolytes in the Church.

[Cam42]

[quote]Why not focus on the lack of acolytes?[/quote]

It has been elluded to, but I have avoided that conversation based upon the idea of the thread. However, what are your thoughts on the need for installed acolytes.

Cam42

[Jaime]

I think the promotion of an acolyte ministry is integral to creating more interest in vocations.

That's what I think

[Jaime]

Its also of great benefit that acolytes have a third less calories than the "ministry of Aco"

[Cam42]

[quote]I think the promotion of an acolyte ministry is integral to creating more interest in vocations.[/quote]

How so....?

Camma-lamma-ding-dong

P.S. "ministry of Acolyte" tastes great and is less filling.....

[Cam42]

hot stuff,

Bishop Vasa, of Baker, OR has instituted a role that is more formalized for the laity.

Here it is:
[url="http://www.dioceseofbaker.org/giving_testimon_to_the_truth.htm"]Giving Testimony to the Truth[/url]

Here is my take on Bishop Vasa,

Nos. 2, 3, and 4 are liturgically linked to the priesthood. I think that it is a good idea if he is seeking to follow the documents Ecclesia de Eucharista and Redemptionis Sacramentum. Personally, I think that it is a great idea, for a number of reasons that will make the NOW (National Orginization of Women) VERY angry. (Although I would not call it “Ministry of Reader,” but rather what it is, Office of Lector.) It shows and teaches a fuller idea of priesthood, both ordained (ministerial) and universal.

Nos. 5-8 seem to be right in line.

Nos. 9 and 11 are the strongest language that I have seen yet on the issue of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.

“The degree to which this perception is justified varies from one Bishop and from one Diocese to another. God must ultimately be the judge. The truth seems to be that there was an excess of compassion for erroneous priests, a defect of concern for the children who were repeatedly put at risk and a lack of resolve to deal with manifest sinfulness.”

We need to foster this type of compassion and understanding toward all persons

No. 18 is also a great summation of the Nicene Creed.

Nos. 21, 22, and 23 are very discriminatory, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. His logic is sound and I think that the Truth behind the matter is clear. Morality from a Catholic scope.

As far as No. 27 is concerned; “Furthermore, it is one thing to claim a right to follow one’s conscience, even if it is erroneously formed, it is quite another to insist that one be afforded certain privileges, to which one has no right, while following that manifestly ill-formed conscience.”

I find this fascinating. It is quite true. While one has the right, because of free will to either accept or deny Catholic teaching and the Church, if one claims the Church he does not have the right to to dissent, claiming free will. For to do that, from a Catholic perspective is sinful and contrary to free will. It actually binds one to the “slavery of sin.” And that is where Catechesis comes in. I would also say this. It is directed toward the laity, but can be applied to those who are ordained or religious, just as easily.

I think that No. 34 is a bit misleading for an ordinary minster is not temporarily entrusted, but permanently entrusted. It would seem that he is also expanding the scope of the Extra-ordinary minister of Holy Communion. I find that a bit disturbing, but acceptable; as long as the compitent Ordinary minister allows for the action to take place.

I find the idea of instiuting installed Acolytes and Lectors is a good one; although, there will be some women who will disagree with me. For, if those are extensions (or Offices) of the ministerial priesthood, then they are rightly prescribed for males only.

His role of Extra-Ordinary minister of Holy Communion is expanded and there are certain concerns for me, I would accept them.

Cam42