MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Posted February 21, 2005 [quote]8. The norm for the reception of Holy Communion is standing. Communicants should not be denied Communion because they kneel. When receiving, the communicant bows the head as a gesture of reverence before receiving. The sign of reverence is made before receiving each of the sacred species.[/quote] Thats what I got off of my diocese's site. I imagine it's an all clear for me. God bless, Mikey
epiclesis Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 20 2005, 08:48 PM'] Nope...show me where the defference is to be given to standing as opposed to kneeling. IF none is given, then tradition would take precedence. The Church in America makes no definitive statement. Therefore the option is left to the communicant, much like that of receiving on the tongue or in the hand. If the option is not decided upon, then the option is up to us. Either way is acceptable. I simply give an argument for the affirmative. I would watch it before I start with the disobedience shouts, I am not being so....if the option is mine, which it is, I will exercise it how I see fit. That is not being disobedient. Cam42[/quote] The US Bishops have said that standing is the norm. In other words, standing is the tradition. I don't understand why you would say that kneeling is the tradition anyway. In the Us we have been standing for Communion for about thirty years now. As I understand it, one of the reasons for standing during Communion is because it is more in keeping with the practices of the early Church. The Holy Father in his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia wrote, "I consider it my duty, therefore to appeal urgently that the liturgical norms for the celebration of the Eucharist be observed with great fidelity. These norms are a concrete expression of the authentically ecclesial nature of the Eucharist; this is their deepest meaning. Liturgy is never anyone's private property, be it of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated."
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 [quote]The US Bishops have said that standing is the norm.[/quote] Show me where. I can guarantee that there has been no definitive statement made. It is simply left to the individual diocese. Cam42
epiclesis Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 20 2005, 09:49 PM'] Show me where. I can guarantee that there has been no definitive statement made. It is simply left to the individual diocese. Cam42[/quote] You have already answered the question in your previous references. Redemptionis Sacramentum no. 90: “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined,” with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “ GIRM 160 is exactly that determination by the Conference of Bishops which has received the recognitio of the Apostlic See GIRM 160: "The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing." No one is saying that you can not receive Communion while kneeling. We are simply pointing out to you that the Conference of Bishops has said that the norm is standing.
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 Whoa.....I guess I should read before I hit accept....I made a mistake. Here ya go....with what the GIRM really says (My Bad): GIRM no. 160: [quote]The faithful may communicate either standing or kneeling, as established by the Conference of Bishops. However, when they communicate standing, it is recommended that they make an appropriate gesture of reverence, to be laid down in the same norms, before receiving the Sacrament.[/quote] Here is the link: [url="http://www.vci.net/~inmanmj/library/girm2000.htm"]GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal)[/url] Boy was that a big boo boo.... There is no definitive statement.....I simply re-copied cmom's statement. Whoooopppsss!!!!!! Cam42 (not infallible)
cmotherofpirl Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 yep And the US Conference of Bishops said standing
epiclesis Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 CAM42, You need to investigate further. Try the following link. www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_posture.htm I've copied the relevant portion below: "History and Interpretation of the Norm In the 1967 document Eucharisticum mysterium (Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery), the Sacred Congregation of Rites (now called the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) established that, 34. ... In accordance with the custom of the Church, the faithful may receive communion either kneeling or standing. One or the other practice is to be chosen according to the norms laid down by the conference of bishops. At the time this directive was issued the US Bishops did not establish a posture, although Communion processions with reception standing quickly became the custom throughout the United States, as they did in much of the world. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (3rd edition) gives the same legislation, stating, 160 ... The faithful may communicate either standing or kneeling, as established by the Conference of Bishops. Acting upon this provision of the GIRM, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) sought and obtained, in March 2002, a particular norm for the United States. 160. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. This norm seeks a single posture among communicants. The purpose spoken of in the norm is given earlier in the General Instruction"
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 [quote]Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel.[/quote] In other words, I will kneel and it is acceptable. No one can deny me if I kneel. AND I am not being disobedient. Cam42
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Posted February 21, 2005 Is that kneeling on one knee or both? God bless, Mikey
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 That would be both. Because the statement from the US Bishop's is about as definitive as..............well let's just say it isn't very commanding. What they are essentially saying is: Stand for Holy Communion, but don't stop anyone from kneeling. And if they do kneel, tell them why they are kneeling and let them continue to kneel. Oh yeah, standing is what we want? [quote]The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. (Commentary on GIRM no. 160)[/quote] I still say it is not definitive. Definitive defined as: 1. Precisely defined or explicit. 2. Supplying or being a final settlement or decision; conclusive 3. Authoritative and complete It follows none of these. I still say that this is following the universal norm. which is: GIRM no. 160 [quote]The faithful may communicate either standing or kneeling, as established by the Conference of Bishops.[/quote] The Bishops have dodged the question in the name of appeasing everyone. Cam42 P.S. Kneeling is using both knees....genuflecting is using one.
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Posted February 21, 2005 I hate to be knit picky [quote]kneel Audio pronunciation of "kneel" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nl) intr.v. knelt, (nlt) or kneeled kneel·ing, kneels To go down or rest on one or both knees.[/quote] Thats why I asked. As far as this debate, the universal norm is definitve. It tells us where to look. The place to look isn't defeinitive. Rebelling against the norm for the sake of doing so is wrong however. Doing it for reasons tied to greater reverance isn't disrespectful and shouldn't be treated as such. I have agreed with Cam on most of this. I'm afraid I'm going to turn into a Cam Jr. at this rate, but again he seems right. God bless, Mikey
cmotherofpirl Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) "such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. " This is for people who for some reason just can't handle standing and need it personally explained to them, they just can't seem to do what they are asked the first time. Why should we expect priests to say the Mass properly if WE can't do our part properly? Edited February 21, 2005 by cmotherofpirl
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Posted February 21, 2005 the priest can use different Eucharistic prayers without being wrong. We, in that same light, can use different forms of reception without being wrong. That document you quote pretains only to the diocese of Pittsburgh. I've posted what my own diocese says about it. It doesn't include anything about the actions having to be addressed pastorally. It just states that I cannot be denied Communion, and if I am no tbeing denied Communion then I am not in the wrong. There is no call for me to avoid this posture in receiving Communion. In Pittsburgh, it maybe different, but under Bishop Galeon I'm fine. Another question, is the Blood of Christ received while kneeling as well? God bless, Mikey
Fides_et_Ratio Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 "well it doesn't explicitly say this, so that makes it okay" seems to be the attitude here. Well I respect the intent, I'm not sure that opting for "implicit allowance" is what was had in mind. ...especially in light of the fact that a parish in my diocese had to receive special permission to mandate kneeling as the norm and have communicants kneel along an altar rail for communion (and no, it's not a Tridentine Mass, it's N.O.) The GIRM doesn't explictly say that I can't lie prostrate in front of the altar during the consecration, does that mean I should do it in a spirit of piety and then explain my actions by claiming that "the GIRM doesn't explictly say..."? It's not about pushing the rules, or edging up as close the line as we can get. When I'm not at the parish that kneels at the altar rail, I make a profound bow before I receive (standing)... though I love kneeling, and the idea it conveys, kneeling is simply not what the Bishops chose to implement. I respect that, even if I disagree with it.
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) Are you comparing something that isn't in the GIRM (lieing prostrate before the alter) to something that is deemed acceptable as a form of receiving (kneeling)? It may no tbe the norm, but it's acceptable here. It's a matter of reverance. It is really hard to imagine it but I think there is just so much more reverance in being on your knees before the Lord. My question about the Blood of Christ is still out there, I have no idea. God bless, Mikey Edited February 21, 2005 by MichaelFilo
AndreaMercer Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 I disagree with this statement in some instances: [quote])Outwards signs of reverance cause (even if unnoticed) a greater understanding of what is happening.[/quote] If you were at my parish, and I saw you kneel before Christ as you receive communion, I would know what you were doing. However, I would venture to say that probably at LEAST 50% of the people would not have a CLUE, be made to feel uncomfortable, and certainly NOT understand what is happening in a greater sense. I'm not saying that the goal here is to make everybody comfortable, I'm just staying that there is potential for people to feel inadequate by standing, which our bishops have said is a-ok. I'm not sure how I personally feel about the issue, I'll have to think on it. I do prefer to kneel at the alter rail, which I've done before. But, I don't feel like it was anymore profound. I'd be interested in hearing more about what convinced you that this is the *best* way to receive the holy Eucharist. THis is an interesting topic. My DH used to kneel to receive, but the priest asked him to stop. eep
musturde Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 20 2005, 08:40 PM'] The Church says we are to recieve standing. Yes we can recieve kneeling if we put personal opinion [b]before[/b] what the church asks us to do, but why would you? Why is obedience such a difficult concept? [/quote] Didn't the Church release a document saying that it's okay to recieve Jesus while kneeling? (this was posted on the phorum I believe) [url="http://www.diocesereport.com/diocese_report/news/rome_communion_letter.shtml"]http://www.diocesereport.com/diocese_repor...on_letter.shtml[/url] [url="http://www.tldm.org/vatican%20letter.htm"]http://www.tldm.org/vatican%20letter.htm[/url]
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Posted February 21, 2005 It all started with a little website called flyfreeministries.org. I went to the traditionalism forum (not a big woop for me, I try to be as traditional within acceptable Church guidelines as I can) and found quite a debate about hand communion. It got me interested in hearing about receiving while kneeling. The Novus Ordo came up and how it didn't accomodate for those who wanted to kneel to receive, because of the line and the walking, it is awkward to walk up, kneel, receive, and go on. I thought about this. It idnd't accomodate a kneeling person. I played with the idea for a moment. If I believe God is in the Eucharist, would I stand before God? My answer was No, I wouldn't. I'd receive while kneeling because I am commanded to receive his Body and Blood, but I am not worthy to stand up before him. I used to genuflect before receiving, but I was told it wasn't proper here in the states (on this site). My intrest has been in me for a while. I can contemplate the mystery while standing, but I cannot explain it by being on an equal level with Jesus Christ by standing. The more I thought about it, the more I thought it was a good idea. Then a something struck me, alot of people receive Communion without really caring or contemplating the mystery before them. I was one of those people. If you give people something to think about (because kneeling while receiving shows inferiority in the recipient, not the equality expressed on being at an equal level with He who is being received). I am not doing it for everyone else though, but that I don't see a negative reaction in doing it, only the room for a more positive one in those around me. It was only when you brought up that some people would be uncomfortable that I am considering it. I think I'll probably end up with the realiziation that their discomfort is from not understanding the reverance towards the Eucharist, because they don't think of the Mystery anymore, or are incapable of understanding the Faith because of mortal sin. It isn't a bad thing to ge tpeople thinking, and a sa young person maybe other young people will be intrested too. I hope that long-winded response conveyed the central reaosn : That I want to show due reverance as best as I can to the Eucharist; and I don't believe it will have a negative effect on those around me but instead a positive one (even though other's reactions aren't my concern). God bless, Mikey
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Posted February 21, 2005 Thank you Mustarde. You should refrain from ever referencing that second site though. It supports a Marian appiration that isn't supported by the Church and is clearly pro-traditionalist in the assertations of the appirition(Our lady of the Roses, Bayside, NY) I had a terrible loop in following in that mistake. The letter seems legit. Thank you for that. God bless, Mikey
musturde Posted February 21, 2005 Posted February 21, 2005 Check with your parish. It's not wrong, just a personal thing. I guess it would take too long to give communion if everyone kneeled?
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