Receiving Communion

[AndreaMercer]

I agree that other people's reactions aren't your concern. And I agree that you have good intentions. In fact, I whole heartedly agree with your reasoning (thanks for posting it), being that you would not stand before your God. I have thought on that before. I just suppose that since I've seen my DH do this before, you shouldn't be shocked by people's reactions.

However, I've thought on this issue before, now that you word it the way that you did. Life would change in a HUGE way if people always were aware of the mystery. Driving by a church, walking by the tabernacle, being seated in the pew in the front next to an EM during communion - all these things deserve equal reverence but, like you said, people are not aware of the mystery in their midst. I think it is a lack of understanding.

I say, good for you. I am not as brave....

[MichaelFilo]

Thank you both musturde and Andrea. I am ony doing it becaue now I've thought about it and it really came back into full realization upon reading that forum on flyfreeministries.org. As for musturde, thankyou for the little comment about the holding of hands during the PaterNoster (Our Father). It was something I was a bit confused about. By the way Musturde, you are all linked up and everything, way to go dude. People who have links are much cooler then the rest of us .

As for you Andrea, it's far from bravery, I usually don't recognize I'm surrounded by people during Mass when I begin to contemplate what is being said and what is happening before my eyes. Its far from brave to show reverence to God in a Church. I think anyone could do it. My real test, as I'm sure it is for everyone else, is to be able to show reverence to God in our actions and how we defend him before others.

God bless,
Mikey

[musturde]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 21 2005, 01:45 AM'] Thank you both musturde and Andrea. I am ony doing it becaue now I've thought about it and it really came back into full realization upon reading that forum on flyfreeministries.org. As for musturde, thankyou for the little comment about the holding of hands during the PaterNoster (Our Father). It was something I was a bit confused about.  By the way Musturde, you are all linked up and everything, way to go dude. People who have links are much cooler then the rest of us  .

As for you Andrea, it's far from bravery, I usually don't recognize I'm surrounded by people during Mass when I begin to contemplate what is being said and what is happening before my eyes. Its far from brave to show reverence to God in a Church. I think anyone could do it. My real test, as I'm sure it is for everyone else, is to be able to show reverence to God in our actions and how we defend him before others.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
No prob dude, i think the Church just doesn't suggest the holding of hands during the Our Father. I don't think they're against it completely but i could be wrong.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur10.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur10.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.sunstar.com.ph/speak_out/view_column.php?tauth=Abraham%20Llera"]http://www.sunstar.com.ph/speak_out/view_c...Abraham%20Llera[/url]

The kneeling isn't wrong but i guess i can see why a parish wouldn't allow it. I guess it relies what your priest says.

[Cam42]

[quote]I guess it would take too long to give communion if everyone kneeled?
[/quote]

Actually, it doesn't take any longer at all. That is the reasoning for an altar rail. The people are stationary and the priest/EMHC are in motion. Although, who cares if it takes 5 minutes longer.

I have lived in parishes that do both....I have distributed Holy Commuion in both. If I had to venture a guess, kneeling would be faster, because as the faithful kneel, they do not stick out their hands, make a step insert Jesus, make the sign of the cross, then move on. They simply receive, get up and move on. The reverence isn't exactly the same, those who kneel, IMHO tend to receive more reverently, perhaps it is because they are in a submissive position perhaps not, but the perception remains.

[quote]Why should we expect priests to say the Mass properly if WE can't do our part properly?[/quote]

How is it improper? It isn't. The bishops say as much. The faithful are not to be denied if they receive kneeling.

I think that the misunderstanding is that the idea of catechesis is taken as a corrective action.....it is not. Catechesis is teaching as to why one is doing what one is doing. It shouldn't be looked upon as a slap on the wrist, but rather...."You receive on your knees, this is why you receive on your knees."

Cam Jr., oops, I mean Mikey makes a great point, actually he makes two:

1. [quote]the priest can use different Eucharistic prayers without being wrong. We, in that same light, can use different forms of reception without being wrong.[/quote]

2. [quote]If I believe God is in the Eucharist, would I stand before God? My answer was No, I wouldn't. I'd receive while kneeling because I am commanded to receive his Body and Blood, but I am not worthy to stand up before him.[/quote]

Mikey, you ask about receiving the Precious Blood on your knees? You most certainly can. It is just as acceptable as genuflecting or the profound bow.

So, ultimately, can we receive on our knees? I would still say so, based upon the reasoning I gave earlier. The US bishops have not given a definitive statement. Which is also what I said. One may exercise judgment in this matter, much like reception in the hand or on the tongue.

Redemptionis Sacramentum no. 91:
[quote]Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.[/quote]

Cam42

Edited February 21, 2005 by Cam42

[epiclesis]

CAM42, the Conference of Bishops did not dodge anything. Did you read the information that I provided to you? The sentence that you keep referring back to has been amended. The Conference of Bishops has definitively stated that standing is the norm. If you do not wish to stand then you should seek pastoral counsel.

Again, no one is saying that you must stand. But that does not change the fact that standing is the norm.

[Cam42]

[quote] the Conference of Bishops did not dodge anything. Did you read the information that I provided to you?[/quote]

Yep, I read it and I have commented on it twice.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 21 2005, 01:59 AM'] the priest can use different Eucharistic prayers without being wrong. We, in that same light, can use different forms of reception without being wrong. That document you quote pretains only to the diocese of Pittsburgh. I've posted what my own diocese says about it. It doesn't include anything about the actions having to be addressed pastorally. It just states that I cannot be denied Communion, and if I am no tbeing denied Communion then I am not in the wrong. There is no call for me to avoid this posture in receiving Communion. In Pittsburgh, it maybe different, but under Bishop Galeon I'm fine.

Another question, is the Blood of Christ received while kneeling as well?

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
No.
Eucharistic prayers are legitimate options given by the Church. Kneeling in the United States is not an option.

The US Bishops said STANDING is the norm. For those people who put their own personal opinion about what the Bishops have asked can still kneel while the priest tries to explain to them what the Church has asked for and why. Its for people who cannot handle obedience.


The document from the diocese of Pittsburgh is the norm for the United States, it just happened to be put together in Pittsburgh, and its easy to read. That is why I quoted it.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 21 2005, 09:58 AM']
I think that the misunderstanding is that the idea of catechesis is taken as a corrective action.....it is not. Catechesis is teaching as to why one is doing what one is doing. It shouldn't be looked upon as a slap on the wrist, but rather...."You receive on your knees, this is why you receive on your knees."

So, ultimately, can we receive on our knees? I would still say so, based upon the reasoning I gave earlier. The US bishops have not given a definitive statement. Which is also what I said. One may exercise judgment in this matter, much like reception in the hand or on the tongue.

[/quote]
It is a corrective action, explaining the norm in the US is standing.

Your reasoning is wrong. The norm is standing, kneeling is NOT listed as an option. It is not a multiple choice. It is not the same as a question on the Lords prayer.
Kneeling is allowed for those people who insist on doing things their own way.

What is wrong with simple obedience?

[Apotheoun]

It is perfectly legitimate for Catholics in the Latin Rite to kneel when receiving communion. The Holy See gave the U.S. bishops an indult permitting the faithful to stand while receiving communion, but the universal norm within the Latin Rite is still to kneel when receiving communion and this universal norm remains canonically acceptable throughout the Latin Rite.

The following is a clarification issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments:


[b]Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum[/b]

Prot. n. 1322/02/L

Rome, 1 July 2002

Your Excellency,

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has recently received reports of members of the faithful in your Diocese being refused Holy Communion unless while standing to receive, as opposed to kneeling. The reports state that such a policy has been announced to parishioners. There were possible indications that such a phenomenon might be somewhat more widespread in the Diocese, but the Congregation is unable to verify whether such is the case. This Dicastery is confident that Your Excellency will be in a position to make a more reliable determination of the matter, and these complaints in any event provide an occasion for the Congregation to communicate the manner in which it habitually addresses this matter, with a request that you make this position known to any priests who may be in need of being thus informed.

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that "sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person's unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

[i]In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.[/i]

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and - if the complaint is verified - that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. [i]Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.[/i]

Thanking Your Excellency for your attention to this matter and relying on your kind collaboration in its regard,

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez
Prefect

+Francesco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop Secretary

[cmotherofpirl]

I have read the document and disagree with you.

The indult determines how a rule is applied in a particular country, that is then the norm for that country. THe US says standing is the norm. This document says communion can't be refused, but it doesn't negate the norm for this country.

Obedience is always the best option.

Edited February 21, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[JP2Iloveyou]

Just my two cents worth...I agree with cmom. It appears that standing is the norm in the United States, and the world. Even at Papal masses and Masses in St. Peter's in general, the faithful receive Communion while standing. My rector here at seminary has also said that he would not refuse Communion to anyone who came to him kneeling, as the instruction says, but he would also speak privately with that person after Mass to instruct him/her that the norm is to stand. I receive standing and the insinuation that somehow by receiving our Lord standing I am less reverant is offensive. Our Lord had some pretty harsh words for the Apostles when they started to argue about who was the best or the most holy.

Furthermore, regarding reception of the Prescious Blood while kneeling. Personally, IMHO, this should NEVER be done for the simple reason that the chance of spilling the Blood of our Lord is so great. As you kneel down and get in the way of other communicants, someone may trip over you causing you to spill. The deacon, priest, or EMHC may accidentally spill the Prescious Blood as he/she is distributing it to you. If you are kneeling with nothing to support yourself on, you might lose your balance, especially if you are older, and spill our Lord.

Cmom is right on this one, as she usually is ! Just be obedient ot Holy Mother Church. There is nothing wrong with piety, but trying to be more Catholic than the Pope, more holy than the Church, or whatever else is quite arrogant I think. It sounds like those who are advocating for this practice, or for all Latin in Mass, or for a return to the Tridentine Mass, or for only male altar servers, etc. are using the same logic the extreme left is using. In essence, both sides disagree with the Church on a matter and think that they are somehow above that norm.

So, the Church says the vernacular is OK, well John Doe disagrees and he spends all of his waking hours saying how wrong the Church is for allowing English in the Mass. How is that different from the Church saying that only men can be priests, well, Jane Doe disagrees and she spends all he waking hours walking around saying how should be able to be a priest? I see no fundamental difference.

[musturde]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 21 2005, 08:50 AM'] I have read the document and disagree with you.

The indult determines how a rule is applied in a particular country, that is then the norm for that country. THe US says standing is the norm. This document says communion can't be refused, but it doesn't negate the norm for this country.

Obedience is always the best option. [/quote]

Rome's fine with it. Didn't the American bishops say that they refused to tell people it was wrong to hold hands during the Our Father because of our tradition?(I might be wrong but wasnt there a post on this as well?). I don't think America plays the biggest role on this one. If the Vatican allows it and the parish priest allows it then there should be no problem. The Vatican even asked that people not condemn the ones who choose to recieve this way. I dont believe US Bishops should put their authority over the Church and force us not to recieve this way.

[aloha918]

i have seen it but i dont really like it...........

it almost seems as though your putting on a show, especially if it is not the norm at your parish

Edited February 21, 2005 by aloha918

[musturde]

[quote name='aloha918' date='Feb 21 2005, 12:14 PM'] i have seen it but i dont really like it...........

it almost seems as though your putting on a show, especially if it is not the norm at your parish [/quote]
i dont think so, it counts on intention. If your parish priest is fine with it, i think u should give it a go.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Feb 21 2005, 08:09 AM'] Just be obedient ot Holy Mother Church.  There is nothing wrong with piety, but trying to be more Catholic than the Pope, more holy than the Church, or whatever else is quite arrogant I think.  It sounds like those who are advocating for this practice, or for all Latin in Mass, or for a return to the Tridentine Mass, or for only male altar servers, etc.  are using the same logic the extreme left is using.  In essence, both sides disagree with the Church on a matter and think that they are somehow above that norm. [/quote]
This comment is nonsensical. It is like arguing that the Supreme Magisterium of the Church (i.e., the Holy See), which has definitively stated that the lay faithful may kneel to receive communion, is being disobedient to the U.S. bishops. This simply makes no sense, because the Holy See has told the U.S. bishops several times over the past two years that the lay faithful may kneel to receive communion. Thus, no one is being disobedient to the Church when he receives communion, whether he receives in a standing posture or kneeling.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Feb 21 2005, 08:09 AM'] Just my two cents worth...I agree with cmom.  It appears that standing is the norm in the United States, and the world.  Even at Papal masses and Masses in St. Peter's in general, the faithful receive Communion while standing.  My rector here at seminary has also said that he would not refuse Communion to anyone who came to him kneeling, as the instruction says, but he would also speak privately with that person after Mass to instruct him/her that the norm is to stand.  I receive standing and the insinuation that somehow by receiving our Lord standing I am less reverant is offensive.  Our Lord had some pretty harsh words for the Apostles when they started to argue about who was the best or the most holy. [/quote]
A Latin Rite priest has every right to speak privately with the communicant after Mass in order to explain why the U.S. bishops prefer standing as the posture for communion; that being said, the communicant still has the right to kneel for communion at every Mass he attends.

Since the Vatican itself has indicated that it is licit to receive communion while kneeling, it would be best if you quit trying to read the intentions of the heart of those persons who choose to kneel in order to receive communion, and instead, simply showed respect for their choice, even if you don't agree with it.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

I understand that this can be confusing, and I may now add to the confusion, but here goes anyway . . .

In the United States the indult permitting the faithful to stand while receiving communion has a normative status, i.e., at the particular level, but a particular norm or indult does not vitiate the universal norm unless the universal legislator, i.e., the Holy See, says that it does. In this case the Holy See has indicated that the universal norm is still effective and that a member of the lay faithful in the United States, who, because he wishes to adore the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, decides to kneel for communion, is to be given communion regardless of the particular law of the bishops of the region. Thus, the Holy See itself has warned the bishops that if they or their priests refuse to give communion to an individual who is properly disposed to receive it, simply because he is kneeling, that in that situation the Holy See itself will take proper canonical sanctions at the universal level against the offending pastor; in other words, the priest will be sanctioned with a proper penalty for his crime in refusing to give communion to a member of the faithful who is in good standing with the Church. The effect of this ruling by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments basically leaves the decision on posture to each individual member of the faithful. Certainly, standing to receive communion is a valid posture in the Latin Rite within the United States, and it is the preferred posture of the U.S. bishops, but kneeling remains a valid posture as well, and if a member of the lay faithful feels compelled to kneel when receiving communion because he wishes to adore of the Lord's Eucharistic presence, it is perfectly acceptable for him to do that, because that posture is still permitted under the universal law of the Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

The point is Appy we have been asked to stand by the US bishops. Last I checked we are supposed to be obedient.

What is so hard about simple obedience?

How can we expect the priests to follow their part of the GIRM if we are not capable of doing the same?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 21 2005, 12:43 PM'] The point is Appy we have been asked to stand by the US bishops. Last I checked we are supposed to be obedient.

What is so hard about simple obedience?

How can we expect the priests to follow their part of the GIRM if we are not capable of doing the same? [/quote]
Yes, and I understand your point; and of course you are free stand while receiving communion, but the Holy See itself, through the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, has indicated that the lay faithful are also free to kneel in order to receive communion, and so no one should say that a person who kneels is being disobedient. It is the right of the communicant to determine how he will receive communion, and he may either stand, which is the preferred posture of the Latin Rite bishops of the United States, or he may receive while kneeling, which is a universal norm of immemorial custom and which has the approval of the Holy See.

[RemnantRules]

I've seen it done and I've done it once or twice but I've always stood