MC Just Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 Ok I was thinking about this today. Ok so in the Catholic point of view and as history shows, the bible came out of the Catholic church., and the world wouldnt have it if it wasnt for the catholic church, even Martin Luther believed this. How is it that Protestants see nothing wrong with building there own churches based on verses from the bible, when the bible actually came from the true church. I mean we know the bible came out of the church, so how can they go and found there own churches. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Is that not undermining Jesus' authority and saying he messed up when building his church? The books of the bible were chosen and canonized by the catholic church. How do they have this notion that somehow they are right and the church that gave them the bible is wrong? If the Catholic church is wrong, the bible is wrong.
Melchisedec Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='MC Just' date='Mar 1 2005, 11:52 AM'] Ok I was thinking about this today. Ok so in the Catholic point of view and as history shows, the bible came out of the Catholic church., and the world wouldnt have it if it wasnt for the catholic church, even Martin Luther believed this. How is it that Protestants see nothing wrong with building there own churches based on verses from the bible, when the bible actually came from the true church. I mean we know the bible came out of the church, so how can they go and found there own churches. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Is that not undermining Jesus' authority and saying he messed up when building his church? The books of the bible were chosen and canonized by the catholic church. How do they have this notion that somehow they are right and the church that gave them the bible is wrong? If the Catholic church is wrong, the bible is wrong. [/quote] Not being a protestant I couldnt answer sufficiently , but Ill play devils advocate. From what I know, one would be the apocryphal text, even though not included in the bible - are still accepted by catholics. Two, the emphasis on mary, doesn't bode well with many protestants and is seen as very pagan to some. Three, the saints, confession and priest dont bode well either with protestants. Its funny, while the bible is built on superstition, many protestants would not beleive the saints to be anything special. Four, many people interpet the bible differently and feel that they understand it better than an established form might have. Lastly, the bible needs no authority but itself. Even though the catholic church put together the bible. It doesnt matter who put it together in somes eyes. God guided the creation of the book through many hands. Who canonized it is meaningless, the content is whats important. This is what ive gotten from people from debates I have had with christians on why catholicism is not considered the same as their faith.
sweetpea316 Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 [quote]Not being a protestant I couldnt answer sufficiently [/quote] BEING a protestant, I can't even answer sufficiently! Yall are making some awesome points though... keep it up! I like seeing the other side of what I've been raised to believe and challenging it all with sufficient information. God bless. Through Him, Rebecca
burnsspivey Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 1 2005, 12:01 PM'] Even though the catholic church put together the bible. It doesnt matter who put it together in somes eyes. God guided the creation of the book through many hands. Who canonized it is meaningless, the content is whats important. This is what ive gotten from people from debates I have had with christians on why catholicism is not considered the same as their faith. [/quote] I think you've hit on the key here. Catholics didn't invent the bible. They didn't write the bible (in theory, at least). They simply translated it (if it was them) and made copies.
ilovechrist Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Mar 1 2005, 04:17 PM'] I think you've hit on the key here. Catholics didn't invent the bible. They didn't write the bible (in theory, at least). They simply translated it (if it was them) and made copies. [/quote] wait a minute-- the Bishops of the Church are the ones who put the Bible together. no translating was done at that time to my knowledge, they just compiled everything together at the Council. without the Catholic Church, which Jesus founded on Peter, no Bible would've been put together.
MichaelFilo Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 From "Timeline Charts of the Western Church" (Susan Lynn Peterson, Lutheran author): Date 393 : The Synod of Hippo -Publishes the first complete list of the canonical New Tesatment books. -First mention sof Maundy Thursday. -Forbids the practice of giving Holy Communion to the dead -First mentions the Eucharistic fast, which is typically from midnight before one receives Holy Communion The first translation into Latin post-canonization was from St. Jerome about 10 years later. God bless, Mikey
burnsspivey Posted March 2, 2005 Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='ilovechrist' date='Mar 1 2005, 04:36 PM'] wait a minute-- the Bishops of the Church are the ones who put the Bible together. no translating was done at that time to my knowledge, they just compiled everything together at the Council. [/quote] By translate I mean from Aramaic, Hebrew, etc. At some point it was translated into the vulgar and I believe it was the catholics who did this. I could be wrong, so don't jump on me if I am. [quote]without the Catholic Church, which Jesus founded on Peter, no Bible would've been put together.[/quote] That's one theory, at least. Or, it's just possible, that someone somewhere would have put it together even if the catholic church didn't exist. The fact that it was you that did it doesn't preclude its truth as god's word.
dUSt Posted March 2, 2005 Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Mar 2 2005, 10:15 AM'] The fact that it was you that did it doesn't preclude its truth as god's word. [/quote] But, if the Bible is truth, then it must be true that those who compiled the Bible were lead in truth.
burnsspivey Posted March 2, 2005 Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='dUSt' date='Mar 2 2005, 10:30 AM'] But, if the Bible is truth, then it must be true that those who compiled the Bible were lead in truth. [/quote] One does not follow the other. There are versions of the bible today that are heretical -- if those compiling the bible were led in truth this would not be so.
Brother Adam Posted March 2, 2005 Posted March 2, 2005 Only the Catholic Church is lead in truth to give us the authentic Word of God. Sacred Tradition is the living transmission of the message of the Gospel of the Church in written and oral means. The Magisterium ensures the fidelity of the Church in atters of faith and morals. Sacred Scripture is the compilation of books containing the revelation of God to man. It is composed by human authors and inspired by the Holy Spirit. That's the key. Inspiration by the Holy Spirit. Provision and protection by God.
ilovechrist Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Mar 2 2005, 10:56 AM'] One does not follow the other. There are versions of the bible today that are heretical -- if those compiling the bible were led in truth this would not be so. [/quote] there are so many versions of the Bible today it's like asking what flavor ice cream you want.. chocolate, strawberry, vanilla... St. Jerome, King James, New American... it's pathetic. that doesn't mean that the ones who compiled the Bible who not in truth, it's just that the people who are translating today are mostly translating it so that it reads what they want it to read, or to attract people to it in the wrong way.
Archangel Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Mar 2 2005, 06:56 AM']One does not follow the other. There are versions of the bible today that are heretical -- if those compiling the bible were led in truth this would not be so.[/quote] Which bibles are heretical and who compiled them?
cmotherofpirl Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 (edited) There is a translation out there that says " thou shalt committ adultery" Edited March 4, 2005 by cmotherofpirl
Melchisedec Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 [quote name='Archangel' date='Mar 3 2005, 09:03 PM'] Which bibles are heretical and who compiled them? [/quote] Wouldn't the gnostic gospels be heretical?
Honour Posted March 5, 2005 Posted March 5, 2005 I am a protestant and right now this is one of my biggest problems with my faith. How can everything I am supposed to beleive be based soley on a book that didn't even exist until 400 years after Jesus. I mean shouldn't there have been some phrophecy, mention of, or even hint about the bringing together of texts that would take the place of tradition. It just doesn't seem to be there. I recently ordered a Not by Scripture Alone. Hopefully that wil help shed some light on this subject, I am completely confused on this subject, and don't know enough about it. Just thought I'd share that though it really doesn't ad much to the debate.
Benedict Posted March 5, 2005 Posted March 5, 2005 [quote]I recently ordered a Not by Scripture Alone.[/quote] Robert Sungenis's book? That is quite a work to get through. What was it, 650 pages?
Archangel Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 [quote name='Honour' date='Mar 5 2005, 06:19 AM']I am a protestant and right now this is one of my biggest problems with my faith. How can everything I am supposed to beleive be based soley on a book that didn't even exist until 400 years after Jesus. I mean shouldn't there have been some phrophecy, mention of, or even hint about the bringing together of texts that would take the place of tradition. It just doesn't seem to be there. I recently ordered a Not by Scripture Alone. Hopefully that wil help shed some light on this subject, I am completely confused on this subject, and don't know enough about it. Just thought I'd share that though it really doesn't ad much to the debate.[/quote] Thanks for sharing, Honour. I appreciate your honesty. Most non-Catholics aren't willing to admit that the bible does not mention the canon.
Catalyst Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 because the roman catholic church began to abuse the bible.
musturde Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Mar 6 2005, 04:43 PM'] because the roman catholic church began to abuse the bible. [/quote] or because people like Luther started abusing it. The cannon of our Church goes back to the Coucil of Rome.
Cam42 Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 [quote]Catholics didn't invent the bible.[/quote] Actually we did. Before the Church codified the New Testament, there were many different versions of scripture that were being accepted and used. It was the Church that decided which were Canon and which were not. This was then translated into the Latin by St. Jerome. It remained unchanged until the Reformation where Luther excluded the "so-called" dueterocanonical books. After that point, it has become a free for all with scripture. Many say that it is the KJV which is the "true" bible....hogwash. Many will do whatever they can to say that it was not the Catholic Church that codified the Bible. The happy news is that it is precisely the Catholic Church that gave us the Bible. It is Luther who arbitrarily defiled it by removing books...those which he had no authority to remove. [quote]There are versions of the bible today that are heretical...[/quote] This is an illogical statement. There is only one Bible. Any other writing is extra-biblical and therefore not inspired....therefore not lead by the hand of God. dUSt was right: [quote]But, if the Bible is truth, then it must be true that those who compiled the Bible were lead in truth.[/quote] [quote]because the roman catholic church began to abuse the bible.[/quote] How so?????? Cam
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