Do you accept

[reyb]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='25 January 2010 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1264428202' post='2044125']
It doesn't matter. Our Lord is trinitarian, and he checks them out. As the Bible tells us, we will grow in our knowledge of God (2 Pet 1:3). Our understanding includes you too reyb.
[/quote]

Ok. Thank You.

[KeenanParkerII]

You're welcome!

[Selah]

Yes

[Vincent Vega]

No.

[Catholic Fox]

No.

[JustJump]

I love that I'm the one maybe so far [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/tomato.gif[/img]

My thought: only God knows.

The Church is run by humans. We aren't perfect, there's bound to be a mistake somewhere, maybe really big, maybe really small. However I'm Catholic because I agree and feel that it encompasses the Truth.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='JustJump' date='02 June 2010 - 08:17 AM' timestamp='1275423462' post='2122226']
I love that I'm the one maybe so far [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/tomato.gif[/img]

My thought: only God knows.

The Church is run by humans. We aren't perfect, there's bound to be a mistake somewhere, maybe really big, maybe really small. However I'm Catholic because I agree and feel that it encompasses the Truth.
[/quote]

Correct, but so are the ones who say no.[quote] 'The Church is run by humans. We aren't perfect, there's bound to be a mistake somewhere,' [/quote] and the works of evil, however failing in detail is one thing, but the ultimate end result is the prime consideration, which it will succeed in, because God will not let us stray too far and as long as the goal is reached it matters not if things are not perfect. Catholics throughout the world practice Mass in different ways. Have some failed and a few succeeded? I don't think so. The fact that we do it is the important thing.

[quote] Catholic because I agree and feel that it encompasses the Truth.[/quote] Truth will always remain victorious and therefore so will Christs Body on earth. The Catholic Church.
God would not call people such as me to become Catholic to see it fail. I feel he called me to it because it is the road, albeit rocky, which leads directly to whatever it is that he requires me to do.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[JustJump]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Maybe I misunderstood the wording of the question...???[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]"Do you accept that the Catholic Church could possibly be wrong?" Sure it could be, it's run by humans. Don't know on what or how big or how small, but I'm not going to claim it's perfect and never wrong. However I am Catholic because I believe the church encompasses the Truth.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]As for the last two parts of the question, I guess it's asking if you can both believe that the Church could be possibly wrong and also believe in Christ? Well I answered the above. And I still believe in Christ...

So those saying no are basically saying that you have to believe the Church is right in order to believe that Christ is true...?

So Christians that believe the Chruch is possibly wrong cannot believe that Christ is true?

[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Well I feel dumb because I'm rather confused...[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img] [/size][/font]

[JustJump]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='01 June 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1275432217' post='2122339']
Correct, but so are the ones who say no. and the works of evil, however failing in detail is one thing, but the ultimate end result is the prime consideration, which it will succeed in, because God will not let us stray too far and as long as the goal is reached it matters not if things are not perfect. Catholics throughout the world practice Mass in different ways. Have some failed and a few succeeded? I don't think so. The fact that we do it is the important thing.

Truth will always remain victorious and therefore so will Christs Body on earth. The Catholic Church.
God would not call people such as me to become Catholic to see it fail. I feel he called me to it because it is the road, albeit rocky, which leads directly to whatever it is that he requires me to do.
[/quote]


I never said that celebrating the mass in different ways fails or succeeds...And I agree that celebrating the mass as best we can is the important thing.

And I am a member of the Church because it encompasses the Truth, by which I was implying that I do believe that the Church's "end result" (big picture, main goal, etc) is right. I believe in God and I choose to follow Him. Yes, I think Truth is victorious. I don't think God would call people to the Church to see it fail either.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JustJump' date='01 June 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1275435679' post='2122368']
So those saying no are basically saying that you have to believe the Church is right in order to believe that Christ is true...?
[/quote]
Correct. Kind of.

The question asks:
Do you accept that the Catholic Church could possibly be wrong, and Christ still is true, and nature is true?

Do I believe the Church could be wrong and Christ could still be the Son of God? No, I do not. If the Church is wrong, Christianity is wrong, and I am a non-believer.

Edited June 2, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[JustJump]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='01 June 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1275437075' post='2122376']
Correct. Kind of.

The question asks:
Do you accept that the Catholic Church could possibly be wrong, and Christ still is true, and nature is true?

Do I believe the Church could be wrong and Christ could still be the Son of God? No, I do not. If the Church is wrong, Christianity is wrong, and I am a non-believer.
[/quote]

Okay that clears some stuff up, thank you.

I don't think I can agree with you on the last bit though. If the Church is wrong, well then it's wrong, I don't get how that inherently makes Christ wrong. God isn't wrong, but we as His people are wrong about things all the time. (I'm not really talking "big picture" here, like saying that the Church is wrong that God is good and loves us and that we should love Him and others.)

Edited June 2, 2010 by JustJump

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='JustJump' date='02 June 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1275436538' post='2122370']
I never said that celebrating the mass in different ways fails or succeeds...And I agree that celebrating the mass as best we can is the important thing.

And I am a member of the Church because it encompasses the Truth, by which I was implying that I do believe that the Church's "end result" (big picture, main goal, etc) is right. I believe in God and I choose to follow Him. Yes, I think Truth is victorious. I don't think God would call people to the Church to see it fail either.
[/quote]
I wasn't actually disagreeing with anything you wrote, just waffling as usual. The question is a bit confusing, because it does not state in regard to what. The Church teaches Christianity, therefore for the church to be wrong and Christianity to be right is an impossible situation. So USAirways has given a correct answer. As usual I probably jumped in without thinking, considering it applying to more minor details like Mass procedures and rules and regulations.

[JustJump]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='01 June 2010 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1275443478' post='2122459']
I wasn't actually disagreeing with anything you wrote, just waffling as usual. The question is a bit confusing, because it does not state in regard to what. The Church teaches Christianity, therefore for the church to be wrong and Christianity to be right is an impossible situation. So USAirways has given a correct answer. As usual I probably jumped in without thinking, considering it applying to more minor details like Mass procedures and rules and regulations.
[/quote]


Okay, so I understand that view from a logical perspective now. Makes sense. Guess it all depends how big picture we're speaking. I was assuming that we weren't simply saying the Church is Christianity so if the Church is wrong so is Christianity. Sometimes things are simplier than they appear [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/doh.gif[/img]

But I now question why this is a question if it's just logic? church = christianity, thus if church = wrong, then christianit = wrong

Edited June 2, 2010 by JustJump

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='JustJump' date='02 June 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1275444306' post='2122476']
Okay, so I understand that view from a logical perspective now. Makes sense. Guess it all depends how big picture we're speaking. I was assuming that we weren't simply saying the Church is Christianity so if the Church is wrong so is Christianity. Sometimes things are simplier than they appear [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/doh.gif[/img]

But I now question why this is a question if it's just logic? church = christianity, thus if church = wrong, then christianit = wrong
[/quote]

Dairygirlism!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JustJump' date='01 June 2010 - 09:48 PM' timestamp='1275443321' post='2122454']
I don't think I can agree with you on the last bit though. If the Church is wrong, well then it's wrong, I don't get how that inherently makes Christ wrong. God isn't wrong, but we as His people are wrong about things all the time. (I'm not really talking "big picture" here, like saying that the Church is wrong that God is good and loves us and that we should love Him and others.)
[/quote]
The protestant ecclesial communities (and the Orthodox, for that matter) split directly from the Church.

If the Church is wrong, even on one thing, then the "house of cards" effect happens - because She says that she is infallible, if She turns out to be wrong, even on one matter, then She is clearly fallible, meaning that She is false (due to the infallibility being an obvious lie (and would someone who was allegedly the Son of God found a Church based on lies?)). If the Church is false, then I don't know how the rest of Christianity (the lesser Christianity, if you will), which directly split from what would consequently be a falsehood, could still be taken seriously as being true.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='03 June 2010 - 07:43 AM' timestamp='1275507787' post='2122810']
If the Church is wrong, even on one thing, then the "house of cards" effect happens - because She says that she is infallible, if She turns out to be wrong, even on one matter, then She is clearly fallible, .
[/quote]
What do you mean by infallible? When we had this discussion once before, I made some enquiries and was told that infallibility only relates to the main things such as the Jesus history. (Christianity) There are things which the Church (Some have, some haven't) has changed it's views on. E.G. The fate of un-baptised infants. The Vatican website seems to indicate that the Church has never made a determination on this, entrusting it to God's intelligence, compassion, sense of fairness or whatever. However many Catholics seem to be split on whether Limbo is or was a Church teaching or not. People may dispute this example as not making the Church infallible. But if we are to take a strict definition of infallible it should be that no procedure or teaching should ever have been changed and it should be clearly understood and fence sitting is not acceptable either. I can only assume that you are referring to the Magisterium as being infallible, which I think I could accept. But the Magisterium is only the head of the Church, there are many places throughout the world where there are differences in procedures or teaching. On the limbo thread someone claimed that a priest had stated to a bereaved parent that a baby was in limbo. Priests and people are the body of the Church so when a priest makes an incorrect statement in the name of Catholicism he brings the Church into error albeit only minor. Therefore overall the Church is not infallible. And I think this is what we are discussing here and should be the subject of the poll.
The poll should be clearer in what it is asking such as
[u]Is the Church fundamental principles and teachings infallible[/u]- My answer would be yes, because it teaches Christianity which is truth.
[u]Is the Church throughout the world infallible. That is, whatever a priest says or does is correct by default[/u]- My answer is no, Priests are human make mistakes and in worst cases satan has its impostors and false prophets.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='02 June 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1275523587' post='2122921']
What do you mean by infallible? When we had this discussion once before, I made some enquiries and was told that infallibility only relates to the main things such as the Jesus history. (Christianity) There are things which the Church (Some have, some haven't) has changed it's views on. E.G. The fate of un-baptised infants. The Vatican website seems to indicate that the Church has never made a determination on this, entrusting it to God's intelligence, compassion, sense of fairness or whatever. However many Catholics seem to be split on whether Limbo is or was a Church teaching or not. People may dispute this example as not making the Church infallible. But if we are to take a strict definition of infallible it should be that no procedure or teaching should ever have been changed and it should be clearly understood and fence sitting is not acceptable either. I can only assume that you are referring to the Magisterium as being infallible, which I think I could accept. But the Magisterium is only the head of the Church, there are many places throughout the world where there are differences in procedures or teaching. On the limbo thread someone claimed that a priest had stated to a bereaved parent that a baby was in limbo. Priests and people are the body of the Church so when a priest makes an incorrect statement in the name of Catholicism he brings the Church into error albeit only minor. Therefore overall the Church is not infallible. And I think this is what we are discussing here and should be the subject of the poll.
The poll should be clearer in what it is asking such as
[u]Is the Church fundamental principles and teachings infallible[/u]- My answer would be yes, because it teaches Christianity which is truth.
[u]Is the Church throughout the world infallible. That is, whatever a priest says or does is correct by default[/u]- My answer is no, Priests are human make mistakes and in worst cases satan has its impostors and false prophets.
[/quote]
We have to remember that the Church and her constituents are not the same thing. Limbo has been abolished, but this idea was never defined as infallible. A lot of priests teach things that are questionable, or that are just straight up wrong. My priest, for instance, told me that one was not permitted to receive communion while kneeling ( ). This does not mean that the Church was wrong, simply that the priest was wrong. Similarly, bishops, cardinals, and the pope (when not speaking ex cathedra) are all open to error. The Church is protected from error only on those things which have been proclaimed in an infallible manner (i.e. the doctrines as defined through the 21 ecumenical councils of the Church).

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='02 June 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1275528449' post='2122962']
We have to remember that the Church and her constituents are not the same thing.[b] Limbo has been abolished[/b], but this idea was never defined as infallible. A lot of priests teach things that are questionable, or that are just straight up wrong. My priest, for instance, told me that one was not permitted to receive communion while kneeling ( ). This does not mean that the Church was wrong, simply that the priest was wrong. Similarly, bishops, cardinals, and the pope (when not speaking ex cathedra) are all open to error. The Church is protected from error only on those things which have been proclaimed in an infallible manner (i.e. the doctrines as defined through the 21 ecumenical councils of the Church).
[/quote]
Rexi's gonna eat you.

[Vincent Vega]

Ok, fine, Limbo of the Infants, not Limbo of the Fathers.

It was contextual.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='02 June 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1275538511' post='2123017']
Ok, fine, Limbo of the Infants, not Limbo of the Fathers.

It was contextual.
[/quote]
Same deal- he'll still eat you.

Have you been living in a hole or something?

Edited June 3, 2010 by Nihil Obstat