Mary

[mamasboy1210]

I have alot of Protestant friends and they always say Catholics are wierd in that we "Worship" Mary. I then tell them we dont worship her we recognize her and they go on to tell me catholics are just dumb. And that Catholics are not Christian. Can some protestant explain this to me? Last time I Checked Christ who catholics worship so arent we Christians. Also why do people hate on Mary so much? She was perfect. Protestants say she was just a women. I then go on to tell them why would out of Billions of women who have children would God choose her to bear his son. Something has to be important about her. Or how she appears to people showing them things. For example Guadaleupe. How can Protestants Deny this Women? Someone explain this to me.

[myduwigd]

Im catholic, but have ran into this quite a bit.
The main reason why I think some of them believe this (its hard to characterize them all) is because they love Jesus. They think that Marian Devotion distracts from honoring Jesus. From what Ive seen they just dont understand that when used correctly Marian Devotion gets you closer to Jesus. So, out of love for JEsus they do it, but they are still wrong.
Scott Hahn wrote a good book about this called "Hail Holy Queen". Its kind of a dense book, but its very informative and very wise. He used to be Protestant and very anti catholic, but then converted to catholicism. So, hes definitely got some incite on this issue.

[desertwoman]

Well, one reason that sums if up is from an article based on another article entilted "The Blessed Evangelical Mary: Why we Shouldn't Ignore Her any Longer" by Timothy George. It appeard in the Christianity Today magazine, here is the link if you want to read the article.

[url="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/012/1.34.html"]http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/012/1.34.html[/url]


But the reviewer of this article, John Pester, says this in his article "Why Indeed:"

Mary is not honored by Protestants precisely because she is believed to be above no one in the Body of Christ. Those who do the will of the Father who is in the heavens are the brothers, sisters, and mothers of the Lord (Matt. 12:50).

And although Mary was a God-ordained vessel through whom God was manifested in teh flesh, and thus is, in fact, the theotokos, the God-bearer in support of the truth that Jesus is God, this distinction affords her no special place in the Body of Christ.

She was a believer, a member with a unique and necessary function, but no more necessary than the function that is intrinsic to the uniqueness of every member of the Body of Christ- even though this aspect of the revelation of the mystery of Christ is hard for Catholics adn Protestants alike to perceive, accept, and experience (Eph. 3:4).

It's a good length article that I will read later on, but I decided to post it here to see what is everyone's opinon on both articles if possible. Now, back to my homework.

[jasJis]

Wow! What a great article. This is a must read for all Catholics and Protestants. It illuminates the real differences. I think the writer misses the mark (by a bit) about what Catholics really beleive, but he does make very good points about Prots coldly ignore Mary to reject their perception of Catholics deifying Mary. Like I said in another thread. Having a special personal devotion to our Blessed Mother is an option for Catholics, ingoring her or denying her the honor God gave Mary is NOT an option.

[DonCamillo]

I created a thread in the OPEN MIC forum.

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=30722"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=30722[/url]

The cover article for TIME magazine this week, shows how Mary is gaining favor among protestants....

[Gal. 5:22,23]

I think I can shed a little light on this from a Protestant perspective. As a Protestant, we consider the Scriptures to be our authority (even though each denomination has its own traditions ). The Bible says so little - explicitly - about Mary, that we find devotion to her troubling. And since very few Protestants read official Church teachings, they form their opinions based on what they read and hear from other sources (not so knowlegeable Catholics and anti-Catholic material).

I'm going to give a few examples of postings from Catholics on two other forums I go to. The first is from ourladyweb.com/forum. And, btw, I go to this forum to learn about Mary and the role she can have in my life.


"The Saints tell us that everything has submitted itself to the Blessed Virgin, even God because so great is the authority that the Lord has bestowed upon Mary, that it appears she has the same power as God and that her pleas and petitions are so effective before God's throne that He would never resist what is asked by his Mother who always conforms to His Will. In the book of Exodus (32:10-14) the Almighty turns away his anger from the Israelites at Moses' pleas; how much more powerful must be the humble prayer of Mother Mary, the Mother of God and our Mother before the Most High? Surely her intercession must be greater than all the angels and saints together."

In the above quote, the phrase "it appears she has the same power as God," I would assume, is not a teaching of the Catholic Church, right? But when a Protestant such as myself reads something like this, my first thought is blasphemy - you know, ripping the garments blasphemy. The problem is, most people upon hearing something like this, would just accept it and not seek the official Church teaching.

Here's a second example. This comes from mylifeafter.com/forums. This poster starts off talking about her devotion to the baby Mary.


“The Blessed Virgin is the spoiled child of the Blessed Trinity.

She knows no law. Everything yields to her in heaven and on earth.

The whole of heaven gazes on her with delight.

She plays before the ravished eyes of God himself.” (This quote comes from mariabambina.org)

I am well aware that there are many Protestants and Catholics alike who really don't understand their doctrine. My husband and I had dinner the other night with a devout Catholic seminarian. He told us that there is a problem among some Catholics with too much focus on Mary, elevating her to a status that she herself would not want. I can't even begin to comment on that, I just listened.

But I can give you a few Scripture passages that Protestants consistently raise when discussing this issue.

1 - Matt. 11:11, "I tell you the truth: among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist." (The question is asked, "If Mary was sinless, then wouldn't she have been greater than John the Baptist?")

2 - Luke 11:27,28 "As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, 'Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.' He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." Why didn't Jesus say "Yes, she is to be blessed and honored." That would have been the perfect opportunity to do so.

3 - Another similar passage is Matt. 12:46-50 "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.' He replied to him, 'Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." This would have been another time where Jesus could have shown His mother honor.


4 - As far as Mary being sinless, Protestants will always raise verses like "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."


All of this aside, I think the main reason you don't hear Protestants or their pastors talking much about Mary is fear. You won't find many of them reading the early Church Fathers either. As Newman famously said, "To be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant." Well, we're steeped in 500 years of history, that's about it.

[Paphnutius]

WOW! I just wantd to commend you Gal for being a very fair and balanced Protestant. Not many will hear us out when we try to explain to them that they also have a tradition that they follow. Also to recongize that many (not all by any means) Protestants are feed false anti-Catholic material is indeed heartining. Kudos!

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='mamasboy1210' date='Mar 13 2005, 10:25 PM'] I have alot of Protestant friends and they always say Catholics are wierd in that we "Worship" Mary. I then tell them we dont worship her we recognize her and they go on to tell me catholics are just dumb. And that Catholics are not Christian. Can some protestant explain this to me? Last time I Checked Christ who catholics worship so arent we Christians. Also why do people hate on Mary so much? She was perfect. Protestants say she was just a women. I then go on to tell them why would out of Billions of women who have children would God choose her to bear his son. Something has to be important about her. Or how she appears to people showing them things. For example Guadaleupe. How can Protestants Deny this Women? Someone explain this to me. [/quote]
Hate to tell you this, but protestants believe in Mary. They just don't hold her to the same heights that catholics do. This works much in the same way that they don't have saints (though I could be mistaken that [i]none[/i] of them do). They still acknowledge that she gave birth to Jesus, but that doesn't really make her more special than John the baptist, for example.

As for those who tell you that catholics aren't christian...well, if you could find a way to remove them from the gene pool, I'd be grateful. Then again, I know you all are against that sort of thing. They are, simply put, stupid or ignorant. It's up to you to determine which and attempt education accordingly.

Edited March 14, 2005 by burnsspivey

[myduwigd]

rock on Gal. : you really challenged me. I think Im gonna look at those Bible verses closer.

1. Matt. 11:11 "...yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he [John the Baptist]." It is possible for someone to be greater than John.

2. Im not quite sure how to answer that one, except to observe the crowd that he was preaching to. They were seeking from Him a sign in which to believe in and Jesus called them an evil generation because of this. This leads me to think that there may have been something not quite right about the question that she asked. Because, indeed, Luke 1 says that Mary is blessed among women.

3. Jesus does not say not to honor his mother, He simply explains that when we obey God we enter into His family. When we are mother to the poor we are a mother to Jesus, when we are a brother to the brotherless we are a brother to Jesus.

4. Im also not really sure how to answer that Bible verse. But "all" is such a vague word because you could use it to include Jesus too, although the rest of the Bible makes it pretty clear that that is not the case. Ill have to think about that some more.

ok, now you get to explain some Bible verses to me:

1. Rev. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
In this picture Mary is seen to be very honored and victorious.

2. Luke 1:28, 42, 48 "...Hail thou that art full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women. ...BLessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. ...all generations shall call me blessed"
If the angel and Elizabeth say this to Mary why cant we?

thanks!

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Hey there myduwigd.

1 - Most Protestants would say that this verse does not refer to Mary, but to the nation of Israel. The 12 stars represent the twelve tribes.

2 - I have a good friend who has taken apart the phrase "full of grace" in the original languages. I have not attempted that yet. But the phrase "All generations will call me blessed" hit me like a brick about a year ago. I asked a good Protestant friend of mine about this and just got a sort of deer in the headlights look.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Mar 14 2005, 06:11 PM'] Hate to tell you this, but protestants believe in Mary. They just don't hold her to the same heights that catholics do. This works much in the same way that they don't have saints (though I could be mistaken that [i]none[/i] of them do). They still acknowledge that she gave birth to Jesus, but that doesn't really make her more special than John the baptist, for example.

As for those who tell you that catholics aren't christian...well, if you could find a way to remove them from the gene pool, I'd be grateful. Then again, I know you all are against that sort of thing. They are, simply put, stupid or ignorant. It's up to you to determine which and attempt education accordingly. [/quote]
Unfortunately many Protestants all but completely ignore her. They mention Jephathah more than they mention Mary for fear they would worship her.

[Paphnutius]

Just another thing to think about is the visitation...

Elizabeth recieved Mary as the mother of her Lord should come to her? That speaks to Mary and her honor in relation to Christ. It was not that her Lord came to her, but the mother of her Lord. Just a thought...

Also the taking apart fo the full of grace phrase...can also mean favored one...(Navarre New Testament)

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Mar 13 2005, 11:09 PM'] Im catholic, but have ran into this quite a bit.
The main reason why I think some of them believe this (its hard to characterize them all) is because they love Jesus. They think that Marian Devotion distracts from honoring Jesus. From what Ive seen they just dont understand that when used correctly Marian Devotion gets you closer to Jesus. So, out of love for JEsus they do it, but they are still wrong.
Scott Hahn wrote a good book about this called "Hail Holy Queen". Its kind of a dense book, but its very informative and very wise. He used to be Protestant and very anti catholic, but then converted to catholicism. So, hes definitely got some incite on this issue. [/quote]
I wouldn't say distract but is mary necessary? Most of the protestants I know from the southern baptist tradition say that the ONLY way to god is through jesus. So alot of my protestant friends and family do not understand why mary is necessary at all. If jesus himself said, that all you need to get to the god is him? Can anyone explain this..

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 15 2005, 02:59 PM'] I wouldn't say distract but is mary necessary? Most of the protestants I know from the southern baptist tradition say that the ONLY way to god is through jesus. So alot of my protestant friends and family do not understand why mary is necessary at all. If jesus himself said, that all you need to get to the god is him? Can anyone explain this.. [/quote]
No Mary is not necessary, but is a willing servant to help those are having a hard time finding Jesus. She is always willing to help the straying heart (as Jesus is), but she is a lot closer to Him for various reasons, but namely because she is theotokos (mother of God). So no she is not [b]needed[/b] in the sense that one can only get to God through Jesus through Mary, but yet anotoher way of coming closer to our Lord through His life and His family. Any help there?

[Justified Saint]

[quote]How can Protestants Deny this Women? Someone explain this to me. [/quote]

That might be changing: [url="http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050321/"]http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050321/[/url]

[MichaelFilo]

... She is needed, for she is the mediatrix of all graces. Without here there would be no graces; which would be fatal. I am not saying God cannot give graces on His own accord, but he chose Mary for that position.

I don't know why Protestants don't accept Mary's role.. but I do know it is offensive to Jesus, and a blasphemy against Mary's Immaculate Heart.

I believe the list of blasphemies against Mary and Her Immaculate heart were addressed by Jesus to the late Sistery Lucy (the Fatima seer).

Here is the list of reasons why reparations must be made to Her Immaculate Heart:
1. Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception.
2. Blasphemies against Her prepetual Virginity.
3. Blasphemies against Her divine Maternity and refusal to recognize Her role as the Mother of men.
4. Blasphemies by those who set children to be indifferent, scorn, or hate the Immaculate Mother.
5. Offense of those who outrage Her directly in Her holy Images.

Most Protestants don't understand Mary (my Baptist friend said he had nothing against Catholics except for Mary; and I'm not going to feed him some watered-down version showing she is no different then the other Saints, she holds a higher position.). Very sad, since that not understanding and accepting is an outrage to Mary, and in need of reparation.

God bless,
Mikey

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' date='Mar 14 2005, 08:41 PM'] Hey there myduwigd.

1 - Most Protestants would say that this verse does not refer to Mary, but to the nation of Israel. The 12 stars represent the twelve tribes.

2 - I have a good friend who has taken apart the phrase "full of grace" in the original languages. I have not attempted that yet. But the phrase "All generations will call me blessed" hit me like a brick about a year ago. I asked a good Protestant friend of mine about this and just got a sort of deer in the headlights look. [/quote]
Rev. 12:1 --Yes, the woman is also the Church, but the woman first MUST be Mary. Why? Only Mary gives birth to Christ (the child the dragon is waiting for..), the Church does not give birth to Christ.

[Paphnutius]

I think, MichaelFilo, they were asking if "Catholic worship" of her is absoloutly necessary for salvation. Please dont get me wrong when I said that she was not needed for salvation. Only Christ can redeem, she may interceed for us.

[MichaelFilo]

The Catholic Worship of Mary is neccessary for salvation to a Catholic educated about the Faith. I hope you don't misunderstand, but the honor given to Mary and that level of worship (below God but above other Saints) if not given to her would be a denying of the Faith. So if you deny even part of the Faith and you are knowledgable that all the Faith must be accepted and practiced, and you omit it then yes, the worship of Mary can be the difference between Salvation and Damanation.

God bless,
Mikey

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Mar 15 2005, 11:46 PM'] The Catholic Worship of Mary is neccessary for salvation to a Catholic educated about the Faith. I hope you don't misunderstand, but the honor given to Mary and that level of worship (below God but above other Saints) if not given to her would be a denying of the Faith. So if you deny even part of the Faith and you are knowledgable that all the Faith must be accepted and practiced, and you omit it then yes, the worship of Mary can be the difference between Salvation and Damanation.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
So is what you are saying that if one does not say the rosary when they are aware of hyperdulia, then they may be damned?