Mary

[MichaelFilo]

... She is needed, for she is the mediatrix of all graces. Without here there would be no graces; which would be fatal. I am not saying God cannot give graces on His own accord, but he chose Mary for that position.

I don't know why Protestants don't accept Mary's role.. but I do know it is offensive to Jesus, and a blasphemy against Mary's Immaculate Heart.

I believe the list of blasphemies against Mary and Her Immaculate heart were addressed by Jesus to the late Sistery Lucy (the Fatima seer).

Here is the list of reasons why reparations must be made to Her Immaculate Heart:
1. Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception.
2. Blasphemies against Her prepetual Virginity.
3. Blasphemies against Her divine Maternity and refusal to recognize Her role as the Mother of men.
4. Blasphemies by those who set children to be indifferent, scorn, or hate the Immaculate Mother.
5. Offense of those who outrage Her directly in Her holy Images.

Most Protestants don't understand Mary (my Baptist friend said he had nothing against Catholics except for Mary; and I'm not going to feed him some watered-down version showing she is no different then the other Saints, she holds a higher position.). Very sad, since that not understanding and accepting is an outrage to Mary, and in need of reparation.

God bless,
Mikey

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' date='Mar 14 2005, 08:41 PM'] Hey there myduwigd.

1 - Most Protestants would say that this verse does not refer to Mary, but to the nation of Israel. The 12 stars represent the twelve tribes.

2 - I have a good friend who has taken apart the phrase "full of grace" in the original languages. I have not attempted that yet. But the phrase "All generations will call me blessed" hit me like a brick about a year ago. I asked a good Protestant friend of mine about this and just got a sort of deer in the headlights look. [/quote]
Rev. 12:1 --Yes, the woman is also the Church, but the woman first MUST be Mary. Why? Only Mary gives birth to Christ (the child the dragon is waiting for..), the Church does not give birth to Christ.

[Paphnutius]

I think, MichaelFilo, they were asking if "Catholic worship" of her is absoloutly necessary for salvation. Please dont get me wrong when I said that she was not needed for salvation. Only Christ can redeem, she may interceed for us.

[MichaelFilo]

The Catholic Worship of Mary is neccessary for salvation to a Catholic educated about the Faith. I hope you don't misunderstand, but the honor given to Mary and that level of worship (below God but above other Saints) if not given to her would be a denying of the Faith. So if you deny even part of the Faith and you are knowledgable that all the Faith must be accepted and practiced, and you omit it then yes, the worship of Mary can be the difference between Salvation and Damanation.

God bless,
Mikey

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Mar 15 2005, 11:46 PM'] The Catholic Worship of Mary is neccessary for salvation to a Catholic educated about the Faith. I hope you don't misunderstand, but the honor given to Mary and that level of worship (below God but above other Saints) if not given to her would be a denying of the Faith. So if you deny even part of the Faith and you are knowledgable that all the Faith must be accepted and practiced, and you omit it then yes, the worship of Mary can be the difference between Salvation and Damanation.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
So is what you are saying that if one does not say the rosary when they are aware of hyperdulia, then they may be damned?

[MichaelFilo]

Simply honoring Mary according to her position is enough. The Rosary isn't neccessary for salvation, and I all of it is focused on the life of Christ. It is hardly a form of worship to Mary.

God bless,
Mikey

[Paphnutius]

Very well then, that is what i was saying. Most, most mind you, Protestants see 'Catholic Worship' as the rosary and Marian Statues and Shrines. Many do not understand the concept of hypderdulia and only see the visible signs, which i said was not a matter of salvation, as our honroing her. I did however point out the honor due her just for the reasons of hyperdulia. Please try to fit in the mind of most, most, protestants. I grew up being the only Catholic at a lunch table that was mainly baptist, Church of Christ, and Lutheran so I have been around that block a time or two. They see the worship being the rosary and disregard the hyperdulia. I was saying the rosary was not going be a matter of salvation. I will try to be a little clearer in the future.

[MichaelFilo]

I am sorry for not seeing it from tehir heretical view. I live rather close to the Bible Belt, and so many Protestants live here. I usually don't tyr to assume their views unless I am talking to one. It's hardly neccessary to think like a heretic more than when you have to. But I understand, we were using the same word with a different meaning, so forgive my error.

God bless,
Mikey

[Paphnutius]

It was just as much my error. I was unclear, my apologies. I just wanted to point out the very fact that makes them unable to see Mary as we do. They limit their scope to only the rosary and statues alone. Once again my apologies and I will try to be more clear.

[argent_paladin]

The vastly different views of Mary by protestants and Catholics is a direct result of the reformation. Mary was (and still is) a boundary marker, a group identifier. You see it today when people hang rosaries on their mirrors or have OL of Guadalupe stickers on their cars. When the reformers rejected the excesses of the popular piety of the day concerning Mary, the Catholics clung to her all the more fiercly. And so the Protestants ignored her almost completely. Now, 500 years later, that is changing.

And it is simply not true that the Church Fathers were silent about Mary. The Orthodox East, the Copts and the Church of the East, even though they broke communion from Rome between the 5th and 10th centuries, still reverence Mary. There are many ancient hymns and prayers to Mary.

And Mary has a unique place in the Bible. She is the only one at every stage of Christ's life. She was at his conception, his birth, his ministry, his crucifiction and at pentecost. She prompted him to his first miracle, was entrusted to the Beloved disciple, witnessed his ascension, etc. And this doesn't even include the hidden years where she nursed her son, educated him, protected him. And he was her protector until his ministry began. No one knew Jesus better than Mary and no one knew Mary better than Christ. This is all directly derived from scripture.

As for the specific questions, the first and fourth are similar. These statements weren't meant to be taken literally. If All have sinned, and if none are greater than John, then what of Jesus? Certainly, he is the exception, because he did not sin. And even John the Baptist says that he is greater than himself, though, he was clearly born of woman. Mary was called "full of grace" by Gabriel. Grace is the only way that we are saved from sin.

The second and third passages are similar to one another. In both, Jesus is seizing a teaching moment. But rather than denying his mother, he was confirming and praising her. Mary is not blessed because she gave birth and nursed Jesus. As Jesus says, Mary is praised because she heard the word of God and obeyed it. Luke could only have been referring to Mary's consent to the message of the angel Gabriel. "Be it done to me according to your word." In fact, that consent was contrasted with the questioning of Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist. It was the perfect opportunity to indicate why Mary is so blessed and honored. It is because of her obedience. "I am the handmaid of the Lord."

Jesus again shows that Mary is blessed not because she is his mother, but because Mary did the will of God, was obedient. It is no coincidence that these passages are in two gospels that detail Mary's perfect act of obedience. The Incarnation could only come by the consent of Mary, her free will, uncorrupted by sin.

Edited March 17, 2005 by argent_paladin

[crusader1234]

There is a [b]very[/b] interesting article in Time magazine about Mary and how she was lost in reformation. I highly reccomend picking it up - its very very in depth.