Catholic or Parish

[mamasboy1210]

People keep telling me that the church is wrong becuause if your not a Catholic you can not go to heaven. Im not sure. I love my faith but I believe if your a christian you go to heaven and if you live a good life you can go to heaven.

[Sarcastic Stare]

if christians can go to hell why cant nonchristians get into heaven?

[Paphnutius]

Well techinically there is not salvation outside of the Church, but one has to realize what one means by Church.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]"Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."--(Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Letter "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore")[/quote]

This was repeated at the Second Vatican Council:

[quote]"This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved...Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience" (Dogmatic Constitution "Lumen Gentium")[/quote]

Edited March 18, 2005 by Eremite

[Sarcastic Stare]

wow... that really smells of elderberries. do they at least go to purgatory?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

you know what i always say

[b]EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS[/b]
(no salvation outside the church)

[Tony]

you become Catholic once you get to Purgatory.. dont you? because then you like learn where the truth is and stuff

[Sarcastic Stare]

coolness. we've got loopholes of hope already built in. catholicism rocks.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Outside the Church there is no Salvation, but it must be noted in the same breath that people [i]may[/i] be mysteriously united to the Mystical Body of Christ - that is, the Holy Mother Church - in a manner other than the normative mode of inclusion insofar as God wills it to be so.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[StMichael]

Pope John Paul II, in his own book that was released over 10 years ago cited that you don't have to be Catholic to go to heaven, but you must live by its teachings either by practice or by innate behavior.

[Sarcastic Stare]

now thats what i was hoping the church believed. whether or not they're in the club they are still good ppl.

(i just called my religion a club... is that a form of sacrilage?)

heehee.. Lil' Rascal's "We'll call it: the He Man Woman Hater's Club. no girls allowed."
classic lil boy attitude.

[Brother Adam]

You certianly do not have to be Catholic to go to heaven. We are confined to the box. God is not. You can not use EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS out of context any more than you can use "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you will be saved" out of context.

Protestants are imprefectly united to the Church through their baptism, and as they are often no longer Protestant by virtue of rejecting the church by through how they were raised, they often have not formally rejected Catholicism, but are merely ignorant of the teachings of the Church.

[lilac_angel]

It's [i]possible[/i] if one isn't a formal member of the Church to be saved...look up invincible ignorance. It's in the Catechism. But "invincible ignorance" is not an automatic ticket to Heaven.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='lilac_angel' date='Mar 18 2005, 12:54 AM'] It's [i]possible[/i] if one isn't a formal member of the Church to be saved...look up invincible ignorance. It's in the Catechism. But "invincible ignorance" is not an automatic ticket to Heaven. [/quote]
Yes. DO use the Catechism.

[Paphnutius]

That is what Eremite's post was getting at. It is often called baptism by desire. The person, although unaware of the Church or of Christ, still seeks the truth and leads a virtous life. This pure desire for the truth, and the fact that it is reflected in their lives, shows that they do yearn for Christ, but are unaware through no fault of their own.

One example can be like some population on a secluded island. The people may honestly desire the truth and lead good lives, but because they have not had the revelation or the Good News brought to them they cannot be faulted. We must remember that our God is a self-revealing God, if He choses or chooses not to reveal Himself to certain people we can only trust them into His care.

How this works into there is no salvation outside of the Church, is that the Church has the truth of Christ, the Good News. The others are baptised into the Church through their desire and longing. There is also the baptism of blood, that is a person who was in the process of becoming Catholic or so and was martyred in testimony to the faith. Although not baptised technically, they have been baptised into the Church through witness through their blood.

One way to think of it, is that the Church has all of the means of salvation made availible to her through the sacraments. The further away you get from the Church, the less access you have to these means of salvation. We can look forward to Good Friday's intentions to see this. We pray for those who do not believe in the Church first (non-Catholics), those who do not believe in Christ (Jews), those who do not believe in God but gods (pagans), those who do not believe in God at all (athiests). This reflects the idea that the further one gets away from the Church, the less truth one finds and therefore the less means of salvation.

[Jaime]

Brother Adam and Jeff are absolutely correct

But let's break it down to something really simple shall we?

We are called to "pray for the unbelievers". Why would we do that it they had no shot at salvation?

If we pray, they will come

[Brother Adam]

lol. I wish I still had time to make those long posts.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 18 2005, 12:00 AM'] Brother Adam and Jeff are absolutely correct

But let's break it down to something really simple shall we?

We are called to "pray for the unbelievers". Why would we do that it they had no shot at salvation?

If we pray, they will come [/quote]
hehehe, I'll bite and play devil's advocate

It's actually the reverse. If these people can get into heaven without the Church, then there is less incentive to pray for them, because they don't need it as much. However, if they have no hope of salvation outside of the Church, then our missionary zeal is increased by the gravity of the alternative. Thus, if they have absolutely no hope, then we would pray for them all the more.




Oy Veigh, you can tell I've been engaging in apologetics with rad-trads way too much these days.

Oh, and Bro. Adam, sorry I havnt been around the Traditionalist board over at FlyFree that much, I've got some atheists I'm talking to one on one who are taking up most of my online time.


Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Brother Adam]

No Prob Jeff, I think I have officially killed it.

And in response - heresy is no way to win an argument.

[Guest JeffCR07]

ha I love it