Catholic Bishops Plan Drive Against Death Penalty

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 02:16 PM'] First of all, St. Thomas is not a Magisterial authority.

HOWEVER, even St. Thomas doesn't say what you do. Note why the civil authorites are "commanded" to inflict capital punishment: "because there is a greater likelihood of their harming others than of their mending their ways." St. Thomas doesn't enjoin the same command if the criminal will not "likely harm others". He may admit the RIGHT, but not the command. [/quote]
Nor did I say that he was the Magisterium, but he has been approved by the Magisterium as a Doctor of the Church. Moreover, his Summa, at least throughout most of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, was the main source for teaching Catholic doctrine in the Church's seminaries and universities, and I say this as a Byzantine Catholic.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]it is my understanding based upon the various Magisterial documents that I've read throughout my life, and upon the theological texts that I've read, and in addition, it is based upon what I've learned while working on my MA in Theology.[/quote]

With all due respect to your academic achievements (and I'm not trying to mock them in any way), but I've seen men with more credentials than you say some pretty erroneous things (see Haight [comma] Roger).

[quote]Nor did I say that he was the Magisterium, but he has been approved by the Magisterium as a Doctor of the Church. Moreover, his Summa, at least throughout most of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, was the main source for teaching Catholic doctrine in the Church's seminaries and universities[/quote]

That doesn't make his opinions doctrine, and neither does it make him say what you think he says in the passage cited.

[quote] I say this as a Byzantine Catholic.[/quote]

I won't hold that against you.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 02:38 PM']With all due respect to your academic achievements (and I'm not trying to mock them in any way), but I've seen men with more credentials than you say some pretty erroneous things (see Haight [comma] Roger).

That doesn't make his opinions doctrine, and neither does it make him say what you think he says in the passage cited.[/quote]
His views have been taught in Catholic institutions of higher learning, have yours?



As St. Thomas said, "Equality of justice has its place in retribution, since equal rewards or punishments are due to equal merit or demerit." [[u]Summa Theologica[/u], Pima Pars, Q. 65, Art. 2]

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]As St. Thomas said, "Equality of justice has its place in retribution, since equal rewards or punishments are due to equal merit or demerit." [Summa Theologica, Pima Pars, Q. 65, Art. 2][/quote]

I have no problem with this. The only problem I have is when you say civil rulers MUST exercise lethal retribution. There is no obstacle to a civil ruler determining that life imprisonment is an adequate method of retribution for grave crimes. Like the Lord did with Cain, he banishes him from regular society, but does not kill him. If the Lord did not cheat justice by declining to kill Cain, neither does the civil ruler.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 02:51 PM'] I have no problem with this. The only problem I have is when you say civil rulers MUST exercise lethal retribution. There is no obstacle to a civil ruler determining that life imprisonment is an adequate method of retribution for grave crimes. Like the Lord did with Cain, he banishes him from regular society, but does not kill him. If the Lord did not cheat justice by declining to kill Cain, neither does the civil ruler. [/quote]
That's why you need to read the other portions of the Summa where St. Thomas speaks about the nature of irreparable harm, i.e., a harm inflicted by one man upon another which cannot be rectified, and how the response to these kinds of capital offenses by civil authorities must be of like kind.

I can tell you in all honesty that if a man murdered my mother, I would do all that was in my power in order to have the State seek the death penalty.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 02:51 PM'] I have no problem with this. The only problem I have is when you say civil rulers MUST exercise lethal retribution. There is no obstacle to a civil ruler determining that life imprisonment is an adequate method of retribution for grave crimes. Like the Lord did with Cain, he banishes him from regular society, but does not kill him. If the Lord did not cheat justice by declining to kill Cain, neither does the civil ruler. [/quote]
I do like the example of Cain, because it is so over used in this type of discussion. In my Jewish Studies classes at SF State it was always emphasized that the Lord, both before and after the giving of the Mosaic Law, permitted the execution of a criminal, and more than this, He commanded it.

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in His own image." [Gen. 9:6]

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]That's why you need to read the other portions of the Summa where St. Thomas speaks about the nature of irreparable harm, i.e., a harm inflicted by one man upon another which cannot be rectified, and how the response to these kinds of capital offenses by civil authorities must be of like kind.[/quote]

The Lord thought otherwise in three cases: Cain, King David, and St. Paul. All three were murderers (Paul especially). Did St. Paul, who introduced disorder into society multiple times, perpetuate that disorder by his continued existence in this world? (And not just existence, but freedom; he wasn't even imprisoned).

[quote]I can tell you in all honesty that if a man murdered my mother, I would do all that was in my power in order to have the State seek the death penalty.[/quote]

And I can tell you in all honesty that I would not.

An interesting argument that is frequently given for the continued use of the death penalty is that it sends the criminal onto judgement. But what if he repents and goes immediately to Heaven? Not only is your mother going to remain dead, but her murderer will join her in the beatific vision. With life imprisonment, the civil authorities assure he will face justice until the day of his natural death.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]I do like the example of Cain, because it is so over used in this type of discussion. In my Jewish Studies classes at SF State it was always emphasized that the Lord, both before and after the giving of the Mosaic Law, permitted the execution of a criminal, and more than this, He commanded it.

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in His own image." [Gen. 9:6] [/quote]

Indeed. He also allowed slavery. With the advent of the New Covenant, however, where he restores all things in Christ, the Lord chooses to act more in conformity with his original intent for humanity.

[Aloysius]

if he repents before execution, thank GOD! that is one of the many amazing benefits of the death penalty. I would argue that it is more common for people to repent on their deathbed and accept the execution (as the good theif did) than to repent in prison and persever until death. the Church's Holy Tradition has always held in great esteem the action of a person about to be executed who repents and accepts death as a just punishment. think good theif to bad theif "you and I DESERVE this punishment, He doesn't"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:11 PM'] Indeed. He also allowed slavery. With the advent of the New Covenant, however, where he restores all things in Christ, the Lord chooses to act more in conformity with his original intent for humanity. [/quote]
Your example is a non sequitor, because in the case of capital punishment it is justice itself that requires the death of the criminal, while in the case of slavery justice itself holds that the servant must be treated with respect, and as the Jewish Rabbis always taught, no man could be permanently enslaved, in spite of the teaching contained in Leviticus 25. The Rabbis held that Leviticus 25 had to be understood in coordination with the Oral Torah.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote] I would argue that it is more common for people to repent on their deathbed and accept the execution (as the good theif did) than to repent in prison and persever until death.[/quote]

We should kill all criminals, then. It will assure they don't sin anymore. Come on, give me a break. The Lord gave us a free will. He expects us to use it, not look to cop out of it.

[quote]the Church's Holy Tradition has always held in great esteem the action of a person about to be executed who repents and accepts death as a just punishment. think good theif to bad theif "you and I DESERVE this punishment, He doesn't"[/quote]

Dying isn't much of a punishment, ESPECIALLY when you're a Christian. The Christian WANTS to die and be at home with the Lord. A truly self-imposed punishment would be to remain for the remainder of his days in this veil of tears, toiling away in the solitude and harshness of prison.

Edited March 21, 2005 by Eremite

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Your example is a non sequitor, because in the case of capital punishment it is justice itself that requires the death of the criminal, while in the case of slavery justice itself holds that the servant must be treated with respect, and as the Jewish Rabbis always taught, no man could be permanently enslaved, in spite of the teaching contained in Leviticus 25. The Rabbis held that Leviticus 25 had to be understood in coordination with the Oral Torah. [/quote]

1) God can enslave anyone he wants, for as long as he wants.

2) Justice itself requires that God cast us into hell for one breach of the moral law, yet he does not. God punishes us, but not with the supreme punishment. The same principle applies in the natural realm.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:19 PM'] We should kill all criminals, then. It will assure they don't sin anymore. Come on, give me a break. The Lord gave us a free will. He expects us to use it, not look to cop out of it.
[/quote]
No, we should punish criminals with a punishment that is commensurate with their crime. Thus, when one man takes the life of another innocent man, his life should be given in order to serve justice and restore the common good.

As the Catechism originally pointed out, when a man accepts his punishment willingly, even if that punishment is the death penalty, it has an expiatory value. I hate to say it, but the earlier version of the [u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u] better reflected the universal Tradition of the Church.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]No, we should punish criminals with a punishment that is commensurate with their crime. Thus, when one man takes the life of another innocent man, his life should be given in order to serve justice and restore the common good. [/quote]

So St. Paul should have been killed, correct?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:23 PM'] 1) God can enslave anyone he wants, for as long as he wants.
[/quote]
God cannot do anything contrary to the nature of the things He has created.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:25 PM'] So St. Paul should have been killed, correct? [/quote]
In the case of St. Paul the civil authorities would have been well within their rights to execute him for the crime he committed against St. Stephan. That they did not is a part of the providence of God.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 05:26 PM'] God cannot do anything contrary to the nature of the things He has created. [/quote]
No, he can't. And there is nothing contrary to the nature of man to be under the dominion of another person. We all are, to a certain extent (parents, bishops, rulers, etc). God can give them complete dominion over us if he so wishes.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:23 PM'] 2) Justice itself requires that God cast us into hell for one breach of the moral law, yet he does not. God punishes us, but not with the supreme punishment. The same principle applies in the natural realm. [/quote]
Although I wouldn't word it this way, because it is far to Augustinian for me, I agree that man cannot make God his debtor and force God to give him the Beatific Vision. Salvation is a pure gift of grace.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]In the case of St. Paul the civil authorities would have been well within their rights to execute him for the crime he committed against St. Stephan. That they did not is a part of the providence of God. [/quote]

So basically, God failed to redress the disorder in society. Not only that, but he rewarded the person who introduced that disorder.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:28 PM'] No, he can't. And there is nothing contrary to the nature of man to be under the dominion of another person. We all are, to a certain extent (parents, bishops, rulers, etc). God can give them complete dominion over us if he so wishes. [/quote]
Yes, and as a consequence it is clear that the death penalty is completely acceptable, and moreover, the Lord Himself ordered its use in particular cases, and this is in no way contrary to His nature.