Catholic Bishops Plan Drive Against Death Penalty

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:30 PM'] So basically, God failed to redress the disorder in society. Not only that, but he rewarded the person who introduced that disorder. [/quote]
The failure was not on God's part, but on the part of the civil authorities.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 05:31 PM'] Yes, and as a consequence it is clear that the death penalty is completely acceptable, and moreover, the Lord Himself ordered its use in particular cases, and this is in no way contrary to His nature. [/quote]


I'm not arguing that capital punishment is not "acceptable". I've made that clear more than once. The only thing I'm arguing is that just become something is "acceptable" doesn't make it "necessary".

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 05:33 PM'] The failure was not on God's part, but on the part of the civil authorities. [/quote]
God could have easily prompted the civil authorities to kill Paul. Apparantly, he didn't want him dead.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:34 PM']

I'm not arguing that capital punishment is not "acceptable". I've made that clear more than once. The only thing I'm arguing is that just become something is "acceptable" doesn't make it "necessary". [/quote]
I know you aren't saying that capital punishment is immoral, but the effect of your position is the same, you simply are saying that it is morally licit, but that it cannot be used. While I'm arguing that it is morally licit and that it can be used, and that based on both scripture and tradition, it sometimes must be used in order to restore justice in civil society.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:36 PM'] God could have easily prompted the civil authorities to kill Paul. Apparantly, he didn't want him dead. [/quote]
I am not a determinist, and so I really do believe in free will, and the civil authorities exercised it. The fact that they were derelict in the proper duties will be something that they will have to worry about on the day of judgment. God can draw good out of evil, even though man may never intentionally do evil so that good may come of it.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]but the effect of your position is the same, you simply are saying that it is morally licit, but that it cannot be used. While I'm arguing that it is morally licit and that it can be used, and that based on both scripture and tradition, it sometimes must be used in order to restore justice in civil society.[/quote]

I did not say it "cannot" be used. I said it never "MUST" be used. There is no command either in the New Testament or in the Magisterium that commands a civil ruler to ever use capital punishment.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:39 PM'] I did not say it "cannot" be used. I said it never "MUST" be used. There is no command either in the New Testament or in the Magisterium that commands a civil ruler to ever use capital punishment. [/quote]
Yes, I understand your position, and I disagree with you. Why do you think we've been posting responses to each other.



I hold that in certain grave cases, e.g., genocide, murder of one's parents, etc., that is must be used.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]I hold that in certain grave cases, genocide, murder of one's parents, etc., that is must be used. [/quote]

So long as you always preface that assertion with "I hold" rather than "The magisterium holds", you won't hear a peep out of me.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:44 PM'] So long as you always preface that assertion with "I hold" rather than "The magisterium holds", you won't hear a peep out of me. [/quote]
Yes, and I base this position on everything I have read from the Magisterium, and from the approved theologians of the Church, and from the Old Testament, and from the consensus of the Fathers.

The Lord in the Old Testament commanded the use of the death penalty, and St. Paul warned those who would commit evil acts of the authority of the State in Romans 13. I am not a Marcionite and so I hold to the perennial validity of the moral precepts of the Old Testament.

[Guest Eremite]

Ok. So long as you always preface it with "MY PERSONAL INTERPRETATION of the Magisterium, Fathers, and Theologians has lead to MY PERSONAL OPINION in this regard", I'll be fine.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:48 PM'] Ok. So long as you always preface it with "MY PERSONAL INTERPRETATION of the Magisterium, Fathers, and Theologians has lead to MY PERSONAL OPINION in this regard", I'll be fine.

[/quote]
Yes, I hold to the universal Tradition of the Church on this topic.

[Apotheoun]

Clearly we are not going to agree on this topic, so we should probably agree to disagree. You may follow the modern teaching of the Latin Bishops of the Catholic Church in the United States, that is your prerogative.

[Apotheoun]

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in His own image." [Gen. 9:6]

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]You may follow the modern teaching of the Latin Bishops of the Catholic Church in the United States, that is your prerogative.[/quote]

No, I follow the teaching the Church has always had. Capital punishment can be licit, but there is no command to use it, except when it is a matter of defense. The nature of the Holy Father's Encyclical Evangelium Vitae would also come into play, so I can't address the topic in that regard, until the Holy See issues a clarification on the matter.

[quote] "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in His own image." [Gen. 9:6] [/quote]

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."--Leviticus 20:10

“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” (John 8)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 04:03 PM'] No, I follow the teaching the Church has always had. Capital punishment can be licit, but there is no command to use it, except when it is a matter of defense. The nature of the Holy Father's Encyclical Evangelium Vitae would also come into play, so I can't address the topic in that regard, until the Holy See issues a clarification on the matter.
[/quote]
And of course you have totally left out retributive justice, and I so I cannot agree with your position.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 06:05 PM'] And of course you have totally left out retributive justice, and I so I cannot agree with your position. [/quote]
No, I've simply left out your Old Testatment standards of retributive Justice.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 04:03 PM'] “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” (John 8) [/quote]
If I were to agree with your implied interpretation of this verse, the entire structure of civil society would collapse. The legal system makes judgments all of the time on matters touching on "sin," and so it is important to understand this verse in its proper context. A mob does not have the right to execute a criminal or to punish a man in any way, but the civil authorities, through due process of law, do have that power, and it is a power granted to them by God Himself. Moreover, in some cases which involve truly heinous crimes, the civil authorities have a duty within retributive justice to execute a malefactor in order to restore the common good and bring about peace and tranquility within civil society.

Genocide and the murder of one's parents, to name just a few crimes, are crimes requiring a death sentence.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 04:06 PM'] No, I've simply left out your Old Testatment standards of retributive Justice. [/quote]
Yes, and that is problematic, because Catholics are not Marcionites.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 06:11 PM'] If I were to agree with your implied interpretation of this verse, the entire structure of civil society would collapse.  The legal system makes judgments all of the time on matters touching on "sin," and so it is important to understand this verse in its proper context.  A mob does not have the right to execute a criminal or to punish a man in any way, but the civil authorities, through due process of law, do have that power, and it is a power granted to them by God Himself.  Moreover, in some cases which involve truly heinous crimes, the civil authorities have a duty within retributive justice to execute a malefactor in order to restore the common good and bring about peace and tranquility within civil society.

Genocide and the murder of one's parents, to name just a few crimes, are crimes requiring a death sentence. [/quote]

Actually, they had authority (and more than that, a command) to stone the woman and man caught in adultery (per the law, cited above). But Christ came to emphasize the mercy of God, and the dignity of the human person, and so he taught them leniency in judgement. Although, strictly speaking, she (and murderers) deserve to die, there is a higher good involved that would prevent it.

Edited March 21, 2005 by Eremite

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 06:17 PM'] Yes, and that is problematic, because Catholics are not Marcionites. [/quote]
Marcion rejected the OT as contrary to the new. The laws of death of the Old Testatment were absolutely just. They have simply been superceded by the New Covenant.