If they are going to have sex......

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]You think that sex without the intent to create life is morally evil. I dont. To me saying a condom is like an explosive device is absolutely absurd. But thats where we differ.[/quote]

Failure to transmit human life is not the primary reason why fornication is wrong, but rather, because fornication is an attack on the dignity of the human person; it is a selfish act which uses another person to gratify your base sexual desires. A human being is a person to be loved, not used. If you really want to give yourself to someone totally, you will take their hand in marriage, and show that you want them totally. Otherwise, you are simply using them.

[quote]The flip-side is that by not giving them any clean needles at all, and someone becoming seriously injured from withdrawal which you could have prevented, means that this is not clear-cut.[/quote]

If you play with fire, you're going to be burned. You can't stop someone from committing stupid acts, and bearing with the consequences. All you can do is encourage them not to committ the stupid act in the first place. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

[quote]Linking the examples in the way you did makes even less sense when it's pointed out that one example involves someone enslaved to a substance and the other is not anything of the sort.[/quote]

Anyone who committs sin is a slave to sin. It matters not what the sin is.

[quote]How dare they promote the prevention of AIDS. [/quote]

Spare us your empty rhetoric. I'm all for the prevention of AIDS. Stop using women like pieces of meat, and you'll avoid AIDS. It's really simple.

[quote]You see a beggar on the street, clearly not looking his best. Knowing that, statistically, 80% of money from people going to beggars on the street goes on drugs, do you give him money or not? [/quote]

This is a red herring, because money is not inherently ordered to the purchase of drugs. Contraception IS inherently ordered to unchastity. But, it's funny you mention this, because I met a homeless man the other day, and brought him to McDonalds to get a meal, and he insisted I give him 5 bucks for later. I said I would buy him another meal to take with him, but I wouldn't give him any money. I asked if he wanted anything from the store, and he asked for cigarettes and a scratch ticket. My fears were confirmed, and I correctly declined to give him any cash.

Someone described this matter aptly in reference to Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. He told her "Go and sin no more", not "Go and sin no more, but if you insist, stop by Walgreens pharmacy on the way".

Edited March 22, 2005 by Eremite

[Guest Eremite]

Also, when you're handing out condoms, you might want to inform the recipients of the Human Papilloma Virus (HPV), which condoms are powerless to defend against.

[Brother Adam]

"Failure to transmit human life is not the primary reason why fornication is wrong, but rather, because fornication is an attack on the dignity of the human person; it is a selfish act which uses another person to gratify your base sexual desires. A human being is a person to be loved, not used. If you really want to give yourself to someone totally, you will take their hand in marriage, and show that you want them totally. Otherwise, you are simply using them."


Thank you. I was about to post that.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 22 2005, 04:38 PM'] How dare they promote the prevention of AIDS. [/quote]
wow, how about prevent AIDS by encouraging healthy sexual habits (ie none before marriage) and abstaining from drugs?

but shucks, that's no fun.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]Failure to transmit human life is not the primary reason why fornication is wrong, but rather, because fornication is an attack on the dignity of the human person; it is a selfish act which uses another person to gratify your base sexual desires. A human being is a person to be loved, not used. If you really want to give yourself to someone totally, you will take their hand in marriage, and show that you want them totally. Otherwise, you are simply using them.
[/quote]

Apparently your view on sex is twisted and selfish not mine. You imply that I want sex simply for myself and use my wife as a piece of meat. I am married to my highschool sweetheart, love of my life, for 10 years this year. We are not in the financial situation to have kids, even though we want them. But we should not feel that we are evil or feel ashamed to want to make love together! For the pleasure of us both. We both enjoy sex together. Hard to believe isnt it. It is not for the purpose for me or just her to get pleasure while the other is simply just meat as you put it. Its part of how we express our love for each other and if you cannot understand that because the thought of sex makes you squemish than thats not my problem.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 22 2005, 05:06 PM']
Apparently your view on sex is twisted and selfish not mine. You imply that I want sex simply for myself and use my wife as a piece of meat. I am married to my highschool sweetheart, love of my life, for 10 years this year. We are not in the financial situation to have kids, even though we want them. But we should not feel that we are evil or feel ashamed to want to make love together! For the pleasure of us both. We both enjoy sex together. Hard to believe isnt it. It is not for the purpose for me or just her to get pleasure while the other is simply just meat as you put it. Its part of how we express our love for each other and if you cannot understand that because the thought of sex makes you squemish than thats not my problem. [/quote]
I was not referring to married relations, but FORNICATION, which is carnal relations between two unmarried persons.

As for married persons who cannot afford children, there are natural periods of infertility to assist in that problem. But that's a whole other topic altogether (see the NFP forum).

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Mar 22 2005, 05:03 PM'] wow, how about prevent AIDS by encouraging healthy sexual habits (ie none before marriage) and abstaining from drugs?

but shucks, that's no fun. [/quote]
To expect the world to be abstinent is simply a unrealistic. There will be teens who do experiment with sex. No reason why they shouldn't have some sort of protection if they make that choice.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 22 2005, 04:59 PM'] Also, when you're handing out condoms, you might want to inform the recipients of the Human Papilloma Virus (HPV), which condoms are powerless to defend against. [/quote]
Condoms are a form of protection. But there not 100% and many people know this. Its no different than a bulletproof vest. More of a due diligence.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 22 2005, 11:49 PM'] This is a red herring, because money is not inherently ordered to the purchase of drugs. Contraception IS inherently ordered to unchastity. But, it's funny you mention this.. [/quote]
Ok, we aren't arguing the same thing. Comtraception may be inherently immoral but drugs are not, so blanket statements on needles are not necessarily helpful but I know what you mean.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 22 2005, 05:09 PM'] To expect the world to be abstinent is simply a unrealistic. There will be teens who do experiment with sex. No reason why they shouldn't have some sort of protection if they make that choice. [/quote]
Simply because somone or some people chooses to make a choice that is wrong does not make that choice okay. I do not understand why people think because there are those that do something, it makes it okay. People complain that abstienence only doesn't work. That is because when they are told abstinence only they turn around and look at the media and the world. They are bombarded with immoral images and propoganda. True, how can we expect people to listen when the world is so counter moral? No one said that living the moral life was going to be easy, but because it is difficult does not mean that we are to lower the standard to accomodate those that simply do not want to try the jump.

[quote]"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable." - ILN, 10/23/09 [/quote]

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 22 2005, 05:27 PM'] Simply because somone or some people chooses to make a choice that is wrong does not make that choice okay. I do not understand why people think because there are those that do something, it makes it okay. People complain that abstienence only doesn't work. That is because when they are told abstinence only they turn around and look at the media and the world. They are bombarded with immoral images and propoganda. True, how can we expect people to listen when the world is so counter moral? No one said that living the moral life was going to be easy, but because it is difficult does not mean that we are to lower the standard to accomodate those that simply do not want to try the jump.

[/quote]
I think its far simpler than this. I think many young people succumb to thier hormones. Maybe these time we live in, help to give in to those temptations. I dont know for certain what the underlying cause is. But I do know that we cannot expect everyone to buy into this moral code. The same reason why we cannot curb people to stop stealing even though they get caught and go to jail. Some can deny their sexual impulses, some can give in to it. I used to smoke cigarettes , and I quit cold turkey. People I know couldnt at all and never could last. I just had the will to deny my cravings for them. My friends, would yeild to their urges.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 22 2005, 05:37 PM'] I think its far simpler than this. I think many young people succumb to thier hormones.  Maybe these time we live in, help to give in to those temptations. I dont know for certain what the underlying cause is.  But I do know that we cannot expect everyone to buy into this moral code.  The same reason why we cannot curb people to stop stealing even though they get caught and go to jail.  Some can deny their sexual impulses, some can give in to it. I used to smoke cigarettes , and I quit cold turkey. People I know couldnt at all and never could last. I just had the will to deny my cravings for them. My friends, would yeild to their urges. [/quote]
I agree with you totally. Only twenty years old those years of raging horomones are still rather fresh on my mind. I am not faulting anyone for not being strong enoug, I am simply saying that we should not make it any easier for them to say "YES."

I submit to your reflection a part of where we are coming from. For Christians, and I believe for many others as well, denying ourselves of urges and what not is a very good practice. It helps us not to form addications practically and keeps our heads on straight. If every person was allowed to follow every impules we would have a very imprudent and intemperant world on our hands. I never really took the sexual urge arguement as a very sound one. A person has to come to learn how to deny certain urges, prudently of course till the appropriate time, to grow int adulthood. This is why we have times of fasting. To grow in the cardinal virtues of prudence and temperence. Like I said, to make it easier to cave into urges is not the best thing to do.

So what do you think?

Edited March 22, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Paphnutius]

As for your comment about sex being an expression of your love to your spose and vice versa, welcome to the Catholic view of sex in marriage! The difference is that the primary function of sex is to procreate. It is also used as the marital act between a husband and wife as an expression of love. It is not something that is to be degraded by the use of condems and what not. I see a comparison between condoms and heroin for they both are harmful to a person's character.

Personal opinion here: When someone uses condems they want to seperate sex from the act of giving life. That is something that is very dangerous to do. It also inhibits full unity between spouses. A quote from the contraception thread:

"Some people (Catholics included?) view the use of contraceptives saying something along the lines, "I am holding something back from you." There is not a unity of self-giving when someone holds back his or herslef by the use of a contraceptive. The man or woman is not giving freely and totally when the use a barrier between them. It is not so much a physival thing...why do you feel that giving life to a new thing restrains you from giving yourself freely? I can understand not being able to financially support the child and what not, but God always supports those in need in the way that they need it. Ok, granted one has to have faith to begin with. That seems to be where we differ, on our views of the sacredness of life. Some people view it as a consequence of sex and would rather not support life that they do not have to. Some view it as a sacred gift the comes from the marital act. It all comes down to how much you value life that is not your own. Or so I think.

As I said, a view held by some. I can understand why you think it holds you back, you think that supporting life that may come from your actions a possible burden? I hope I am not overstating your stance. "

Sex is a very appropriate expression of love to a spouse, we call it the marital act. When used wrongly, however, like all things it can be abused. I am claiming NOT that you are using your wife as a piece of meat. And I seriously apologize for others if you got that impression. You sound like a very sincere and honest person and I would never offend your marriage. I am just asking you to view it through our lense for a while aside from what the secular world says about your "rights" to express a sexual urge...

Edited March 22, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 22 2005, 05:42 PM'] I agree with you totally. Only twenty years old those years of raging horomones are still rather fresh on my mind. I am not faulting anyone for not being strong enoug, I am simply saying that we should not make it any easier for them to say "YES."

I submit to your reflection a part of where we are coming from. For Christians, and I believe for many others as well, denying ourselves of urges and what not is a very good practice. It helps us not to form addications practically and keeps our heads on straight. If every person was allowed to follow every impules we would have a very imprudent and intemperant world on our hands. I never really took the sexual urge arguement as a very sound one. A person has to come to learn how to deny certain urges, prudently of course till the appropriate time, to grow int adulthood. This is why we have times of fasting. To grow in the cardinal virtues of prudence and temperence. Like I said, to make it easier to cave into urges is not the best thing to do.

So what do you think? [/quote]
I agree with you for sure. I definitely dont believe in giving in to all your urges. Today I would have went to mc donalds for lunch instead of having that skinless chicken breast and green beans. Growing up, my older brother always had a hot temper. He would just cave into that anger and never have the control to keep his cool. I never had that problem, I could keep a cool head in the most extreme situations. I think of people like my brother, who might do something out of impulse. I think for those of them, contraceptives could help prevent abortions or having kids at an early age.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 22 2005, 06:00 PM'] As for your comment about sex being an expression of your love to your spose and vice versa, welcome to the Catholic view of sex in marriage! The difference is that the primary function of sex is to procreate. It is also used as the marital act between a husband and wife as an expression of love. It is not something that is to be degraded by the use of condems and what not. I see a comparison between condoms and heroin for they both are harmful to a person's character.

Personal opinion here: When someone uses condems they want to seperate sex from the act of giving life. That is something that is very dangerous to do. It also inhibits full unity between spouses.  A quote from the contraception thread:

"Some people (Catholics included?) view the use of contraceptives saying something along the lines, "I am holding something back from you." There is not a unity of self-giving when someone holds back his or herslef by the use of a contraceptive. The man or woman is not giving freely and totally when the use a barrier between them. It is not so much a physival thing...why do you feel that giving life to a new thing restrains you from giving yourself freely? I can understand not being able to financially support the child and what not, but God always supports those in need in the way that they need it. Ok, granted one has to have faith to begin with. That seems to be where we differ, on our views of the sacredness of life. Some people view it as a consequence of sex and would rather not support life that they do not have to. Some view it as a sacred gift the comes from the marital act. It all comes down to how much you value life that is not your own. Or so I think.

As I said, a view held by some. I can understand why you think it holds you back, you think that supporting life that may come from your actions a possible burden? I hope I am not overstating your stance. "

Sex is a very appropriate expression of love to a spouse, we call it the marital act. When used wrongly, however, like all things it can be abused. I am claiming NOT that you are using your wife as a piece of meat. And I seriously apologize for others if you got that impression. You sound like a very sincere and honest person and I would never offend your marriage. I am just asking you to view it through our lense for a while aside from what the secular world says about your "rights" to express a sexual urge... [/quote]
I might see condoms degrading only at the most mundane levels. But seeing drug addiction face to face, and comparing it to condoms is difficult for me to see the same severity in the two. I really dont need sex to feel unified with my wife, we have a bond that is beyond what many will ever know love to be. But it is an expression of our love for one another. I agree sex can be abused. Primarily because it feels good and many people search for that feeling. Especially if that feeling is void in their life. Control is essential for just about everything. You can overwork yourself, over excercise, overeat. And we have alot of those in our society.

I can definitely understand how the sacredness of sex can be destroyed by the current status quo of sex. Sex is more of a pastime now for many than a sacred act. It has in some circles been relegated to just an animalistic act. The reason why I see contraceptives as essential in modern society is for the very facts I just mentioned. Kids are born(to irresponsible parents), aborted, sent to adoptions. Alot of irresponsibility occurs everyday.

I definitely didnt like people saying that I treat women like meat. Being raised by my mom and having the utmost respect for women. I was extremely offended by that comment. I truly and always appreciate the courtesy you have always shown me throughout our discussions. Im seeing your perspective much clearer now.

Edited March 22, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 22 2005, 06:44 PM'] I really dont need sex to feel unified with my wife, we have a bond that is beyond what many will ever know love to be.


[/quote]
I agree, sex in marriage does not exhaust the unification the husband has for the wife and vice versa. We both agree, though, that is part of it, but not the culmination of it.

[quote] The reason why I see contraceptives as essential in modern society is for the very facts I just mentioned.  Kids are born(to irresponsible parents), aborted, sent to adoptions.  Alot of irresponsibility occurs everyday.
[/quote]

I think we both agree that something needs to be done in our day to curb a lot of what is happening in our society regarding the abuse of sex, drugs, and others. I think our difference is mainly in the means in doing this. I see condems as a short term solution that temporarily attempts to solve the problem. That is aside from my view about the wrong that they incur. If we really want to stop these things we have a lot more work to do on a lot of deeper levels. Not an impossible task. Think globally, act locally! We agree on the ends, but not the means for different reasons.

[quote]  Im seeing your perspective much clearer now.[/quote]

I thank you for your openess in discussion and attempts to look at our side of things. It is a great sign of respect and maturity. I think that when people's tempers get flared up we don't think everything through, or say things a little harsher than was meant. I am indeed glad that we are able to have these discussions because it makes me defend my position and hear out other's stances. Who knows Melchisedec, maybe one day we will see each other after all is said and done with?

[curtins]

ok ill just chime in hear with my two cents:

1st I would tell the person NOT to have sex until they are married and I'd go into exactly why- (physical, emotional, and spiritual implications of fornication) then I'd explain why condoms are wrong and how they dont let God carry out his plan but rather are just another way men have tried to use women to keep ourselves sexually satisfyed. I'd explain the failure rate of condoms and how they'd be commiting not only adultary but murder also. I'd refer them to www.pureloveclub.com and most of all I'd pray for them.

Now someone bought up condoms being used to help the AIDS epidemic. Now could you just for a moment, explain to me, how does one come to the conclusion that we will end a sexual transmited desease by encouraging more sex?? It just doesnt make sence. But OHHHH NOOOO people cant give up their selfish sexual acts! ITS ABSOLUTLY IMPOSSIBLE to wait for marriage and use sex the way it was intended- ughhh our culture and our media disgusts me.

God bless

[argent_paladin]

1. In the OT, something could be korban because it was unclean or because it was sacred. It means, "set apart". Similarly, setting something off-limits can be because it is "dirty" or because it is "holy." People have the incorrect notion that Catholics think that sex is dirty. But in fact, we believe that it is sacred, holy, set apart. To those who say that sex is "no big deal", we say, it is one of the biggest deals, it is cocreation with God, it is transmitting life, it is the complete giving of one person to another, it is the two becoming one flesh. Therefore, anything less is a lie, anything else is a failure of what is holy, anything less is a mockery of what is holy and beautiful.

2. If you are not mature/ready to accept the natural consequences of your action, then do not take that action. It's that simple.

3. If someone came to you and said that he was going to rape someone, and there is nothing you could do about it, would you tell them to use a condom? No, because rape is wrong and because you would then be an accessory to the rape. Similarly, if someone said that they were going to murder (a very bad man) would you give them advice so as to not get caught? Or if someone was going to commit suicide, would you tell them the best, least painful, way?

4. Intentionally sterile marriages are objectively inferior to fruitful ones. Love is inherently fruitful, overflowing, desirous of sharing itself with others. That is what having a child does. The opposite of love is not hate, but use. The opposite of treating someone like a person is treating him/her like an object. Contraception encourages that. Contracepted sex is conceptually far closer to mutual masturbation than it is to fruitful sex. This is because neither of you are completely giving yourself to the other. You are holding back a vital, central part of yourself. Contraception has had devistating effects on married life. Sex is now seen as merely a recreational sport, competing with other recreations. "Should we have sex or watch a movie?" But sex is far more than mere recreation for Catholics.

5. The better solution is invariably positive behavioral change rather than a technical "quick fix". Is it better to diet and exercise to lose weight or to have a once a year liposuction? Is it better to hope for a cure for cancer or to stop smoking two packs a day? Is it better to wear a helmet when running across freeways, or to avoid that behavior? Sex isn't inevitable. We have the capacity to make responsible choices. Yes, we all make mistakes, but to reclassify our mistakes as our virtues is the biggest mistake of all. Sexually transmitted disease rates have skyrocketed in the "safe-sex" era and out-of-wedlock births and divorce are higher than ever.

[jmjtina]

This really isn't an issue with contraception, but on pre-marital sex.

No true, pure love can exist without God.

If love does not climb, it falls. If sex does not mount to heaven, it descends into hell.

Wait for marriage to have sex and express your love totally and completely. Contraception is a lie and an illusion even married couples. (yes, even in marriage contraception is wrong) Sex should only be given to the one you'll love for the rest of your life, proven by commitment in marriage totally and completely. Marital love includes sex, but sex does not include love. Sex is biological and physiological and has its definite zones of satisfaction. Love, on the contrary, includes all of these but is directed to the totality of the person loved, i.e, as a creature composed of body and soul and made to the image and likeness of God. Love seeks the clock and it's purpose, sex concentrates on the mainspring and forgets it's mission to keep time. Love is soul contact with another for the sake of perfection; sex is body contact with another for the sake of sublimation. A person is only a person only when seen in an image of God.

pax.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Mar 22 2005, 10:39 PM']This really isn't an issue with contraception, but on pre-marital sex.

No true, pure love can exist without God.

If love does not climb, it falls.  If sex does not mount to heaven, it descends into hell.

Wait for marriage to have sex and express your love totally and completely.  Contraception is a lie and an illusion even married couples.  (yes, even in marriage contraception is wrong)  Sex should only be given to the one you'll love for the rest of your life, proven by commitment in marriage totally and completely.  Marital love includes sex, but sex does not include love.  Sex is biological and physiological and has its definite zones of satisfaction.  Love, on the contrary, includes all of these but is directed to the totality of the person loved, i.e, as a creature composed of body and soul and made to the image and likeness of God.  Love seeks the clock and it's purpose, sex concentrates on the mainspring and forgets it's mission to keep time.  Love is soul contact with another for the sake of perfection; sex is body contact with another for the sake of sublimation.  A person is only a person only when seen in an image of God. 

pax.[/quote]
WORD!!!

Peace,
Joe