The Divinity of Christ

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Pistos' date='Mar 31 2005, 03:05 PM'] Melchisedec: I don't think it is unreasonable for you to consider the "this generation" prophecy sufficient basis to believe Jesus is a liar. At the same time, I do not find your arguments sufficient basis to dissuade me from my position. I think the multiple fulfillments idea is not unreasonable, especially when other parts of Scripture exhibit it.

If I were [still] atheist, Matthew 24:34 would be enough reason for me, too. [/quote]
[quote] The existance of multiple fulfillment means we have to do lots of work to find out all we can about a particular prophesy from the rest of the Bible. We then have to make ALL the pieces fit the picture we have in mind.[/quote]

Thats the problem with multiple fulfillment, you use it to make the bible work for you. You take it away, and it falls apart. I really haven't seen many apologetics go through this road. Maybe there is a reason for that.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 31 2005, 03:18 PM'] The word for "generation" also means "age" or "era"...nice try. [/quote]
The problem with that, the word is never used in that light throughout the bible. And it is considered among scholars to be an uncommon use of that word to mean 'age', 'era' or 'race'. How about taking into account that in 52 translations of the bible, its always written as 'generations'. If you want all 52 examples, Id be happy to show them to you.

Edited March 31, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 31 2005, 04:29 PM'] The problem with that, the word is never used in that light throughout the bible. And it is considered among scholars to be an uncommon use of that word to mean 'age', 'era' or 'race'. How about taking into account that in 52 translations of the bible, its always written as 'generations'. If you want all 52 examples, Id be happy to show them to you. [/quote]
I have no doubt that it is consistently translated as "generation." However, even in English, the word "generation" can refer to an era or general time period.

Oh, and I know Koine Greek.

[Pistos]

Melchisedec: For the time being, I don't have a problem with "making the Bible work". In my Christian journey so far, it has become clear that anyone or any denomination can take various bits of Scripture to "conclude" all sorts of whatever-the-heck they want. I place my faith first in: Jesus is divine; second in the Church I believe he founded. Then I listen to see if there is a Catholic defense, clarification or refutation for any given Scriptural interpretation -- including allegations that Jesus lied in Matthew 24:34.

So, in some sense, I agree: You make Matt 24:34 "work for you" to support the untruthfulness or untrustworthiness of Jesus' recorded words, while I make it work for me to support that he isn't a liar.

Again, I say: Matthew 24:34 is not sufficient reason [for me] to disbelieve in the claims of Christ.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 31 2005, 03:35 PM'] I have no doubt that it is consistently translated as "generation." However, even in English, the word "generation" can refer to an era or general time period.

Oh, and I know Koine Greek. [/quote]
When I tell you, 'this generation' what am I talking about?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Pistos' date='Mar 31 2005, 03:42 PM'] So, in some sense, I agree: You make Matt 24:34 "work for you" to support the untruthfulness or untrustworthiness of Jesus' recorded words, while I make it work for me to support that he isn't a liar.
[/quote]
How so?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 31 2005, 04:56 PM'] When I tell you, 'this generation' what am I talking about? [/quote]
It depends on whether you are using the term "generation" in an archaic English way or not.

At best, your argument only proves that the English language has moved away from using the term "generation" in the sense of an era or age.

[Pistos]

Melchisedec: "How so" what? You know how you make it work for you; I make it work for me by multiple fulfillments. Or what are you asking?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 31 2005, 04:04 PM'] It depends on whether you are using the term "generation" in an archaic English way or not.

At best, your argument only proves that the English language has moved away from using the term "generation" in the sense of an era or age. [/quote]
[quote]"body of individuals born about the same period  (usually 30 years),"[/quote]

According to the etymology of the word.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Pistos' date='Mar 31 2005, 04:04 PM'] You know how you make it work for you; [/quote]
I really dont know. I honestly feel that all I am addressing it and showing to you the translation of the word and what the word means. But show me from your perspective what you think Im doing to 'make it work for me'. Im curious.

[Pistos]

Melchisedec: I'll humour you, even though I'd rather you just come out and say it if you know yourself.

I think you believe that Jesus did not mean any extended period of measurable time (say, more than a century or so), and thus you believe that his prediction of when his described events would come true did not in fact come to pass. And hence, you think he is a liar, or a fraud, or what-have-you.

[quote name='Melchisedec'][i]Matthew 24:34. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.[/i]
His generation passed. I consider that a lie.[/quote]

But please, don't let me put words in your mouth, just tell us what you believe with respect to this verse?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 31 2005, 05:13 PM']

According to the etymology of the word. [/quote]
The etymology of the word, eh? Hmmm...well, the etymology is from the Latin [i]genus, generis[/i], which means: birth, descent, noble birth, descendant, race, kind, class, species, respect, way, general term.

In this way, the etymology, by means of reference to a reproductive generation, is inclusive of the generic idea of a generation, that is, a new class. The new class spoken of is the new world order, the Church, or, by extension, it's life-span, which is everlasting.

Did I mention that while I know Koine Greek, I'm nearly fluent in Latin?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Pistos' date='Mar 31 2005, 04:22 PM'] Melchisedec: I'll humour you, even though I'd rather you just come out and say it if you know yourself.

I think you believe that Jesus did not mean any extended period of measurable time (say, more than a century or so), and thus you believe that his prediction of when his described events would come true did not in fact come to pass. And hence, you think he is a liar, or a fraud, or what-have-you.



But please, don't let me put words in your mouth, just tell us what you believe with respect to this verse? [/quote]
I was aiming to see how I in someway you think I was attempting to manipulate the words to mean something they do not. What you quoted are my words, and are exactly how I feel about the passage. But not what I was referencing when I asked you the previous question. Lets not digress any further from the current discussion.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 31 2005, 04:33 PM'] The etymology of the word, eh?  Hmmm...well, the etymology is from the Latin [i]genus, generis[/i], which means: birth, descent, noble birth, descendant, race, kind, class, species, respect, way, general term.

In this way, the etymology, by means of reference to a reproductive generation, is inclusive of the generic idea of a generation, that is, a new class.  The new class spoken of is the new world order, the Church, or, by extension, it's life-span, which is eternal.

Did I mention that while I know Koine Greek, I'm fluent in Latin? [/quote]
So its a new definition, one that you basicly made up. Like when someone told, the defition of jealous changed when god used it. How convenient

Edited March 31, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 31 2005, 05:45 PM'] So its a new definition, one that you basicly made up. Like when someone told, the defition of jealous changed when god used it. How convenient [/quote]
That's a cop out.

I was using the Harper-Collins Latin Concise Dictionary and expounding. I think that after four gold medals on the National Latin Exams, which makes me 99th percentile nationwide, one bronze and one silver medal on the Medusa Myth Exams, two "Best Latin Student of the Year" awards, Latin Club co-presidency, and one Latin 492/892 Latin Poetry/Roman Comedy class, I know enough of the language to understand morphology and etymology.

I suppose you think that you can disprove me?